Malik Yoba at the Breakfast Club addressing Trans Issues

[mryounggun]

1. Part of my treatment of a man is using Male pronouns. I don't view this as moving the goal posts.

2. I don't believe that's the definition of African American. I think a lot of people from the islands that look black don't classify themselves this way.

3. I told you some of the videos I've watched from LGBT people to learn about them. Including this hour long interview. I've put in the time and research. Probably more than most. I'm just not buying in.

4. You're ignoring the whole point of the video. You said you've never met anyone who's queer, and is offended by being called queer. Instead of me just saying "well they're out there", I sent a video of queer people saying that they don't like the term queer.

5. You keep saying that and it's not true. I edited point 1, but I guess late. This is a MAJOR issue, but you keep getting it wrong. People are forcing us to do it. People get fired over it, sued over it, fined over it etc. If it wasn't being forced on people, I'd be more on your side.

1. Agree to disagree.

2. I mean...I'm just telling you the Oxford definition of African American. If you 'don't believe' the definition, I don't really know where else to go from here. Lol.

3. There's nothing to argue on this one.

4. I'm not ignoring anything. I said I never encountered something. You showed me a video of it. I said thank you. I wasn't being condescending. I was serious. Thanks! I just don't know what else you want me to say besides that or what you're getting at with this one.

5. Force - involving physical, often violent, strength or power. Who is forcing you to call a non-binary person 'them'?

We can do this all day, family. But like I said, we really not making any forward progress here. Looks like one of those 'agree to disagree' joints.

 

[Bow to Royalty]

1. Agree to disagree.

2. I mean...I'm just telling you the Oxford definition of African American. If you 'don't believe' the definition, I don't really know where else to go from here. Lol.

3. There's nothing to argue on this one.

4. I'm not ignoring anything. I said I never encountered something. You showed me a video of it. I said thank you. I wasn't being condescending. I was serious. Thanks! I just don't know what else you want me to say besides that or what you're getting at with this one.

5. Force - involving physical, often violent, strength or power. Who is forcing you to call a non-binary person 'them'?

We can do this all day, family. But like I said, we really not making any forward progress here. Looks like one of those 'agree to disagree' joints.

1. Fair enough
2. Merriam Webster has a different definition. Guess it depends which you use. Fair enough.
3. Agreed
4. I misread your post. My fault. I thought you said I sent you a video you'd seen before. Made me read it as sarcasm. My fault.

I'm cool with 1-4. Difference of opinions, and things like that. But #5 isn't that, and it's a big deal IMO.

5. Force - make (someone) do something against their will. (From the Oxford dictionary). I posted earlier about a teacher in VA that was fired for not saying the pronoun a kid preferred. They tried to force him. Here's a quote from NY's Human Rights Law.

The NYCHRL requires employers and covered entities to use the name, pronouns, and title (e.g., Ms./Mrs./Mx.)15 with which a person self-identifies, regardless of the person’s sex assigned at birth, anatomy, gender, medical history, appearance, or the sex indicated on the person’s identification.

Most people and many transgender people use female or male pronouns and titles. Some transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming people use pronouns other than he/him/his or she/her/hers, such as they/them/theirs or ze/hir.16 They/them/theirs can be used to identify or refer to a single person (e.g., “Joan is going to the store, and they want to know when to leave”). Many transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming people use a different name than the one they were assigned at birth.

 

[mryounggun]

1. Fair enough
2. Merriam Webster has a different definition. Guess it depends which you use. Fair enough.
3. Agreed
4. I misread your post. My fault. I thought you said I sent you a video you'd seen before. Made me read it as sarcasm. My fault.

I'm cool with 1-4. Difference of opinions, and things like that. But #5 isn't that, and it's a big deal IMO.

5. Force - make (someone) do something against their will. (From the Oxford dictionary). I posted earlier about a teacher in VA that was fired for not saying the pronoun a kid preferred. They tried to force him. Here's a quote from NY's Human Rights Law.

The NYCHRL requires employers and covered entities to use the name, pronouns, and title (e.g., Ms./Mrs./Mx.)15 with which a person self-identifies, regardless of the person’s sex assigned at birth, anatomy, gender, medical history, appearance, or the sex indicated on the person’s identification.

Most people and many transgender people use female or male pronouns and titles. Some transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming people use pronouns other than he/him/his or she/her/hers, such as they/them/theirs or ze/hir.16 They/them/theirs can be used to identify or refer to a single person (e.g., “Joan is going to the store, and they want to know when to leave”). Many transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming people use a different name than the one they were assigned at birth.

You keep saying things that make me believe we still aren't on the same page, as even given the definition you used and the scenario you laid out...that's still not being 'forced'. But at this point, I just think it'd pointless.

Good talk. Salute.

 

[Bow to Royalty]

You keep saying things that make me believe we still aren't on the same page, as even given the definition you used and the scenario you laid out...that's still not being 'forced'. But at this point, I just think it'd pointless.

Good talk. Salute.

Haha bruh, I know talking in circles can be frustrating, so I'm glad we knocked out 4 of 5. I'm down to let it go, but first just help me understand how you don't view this as forcing someone to do something? A government employer told a man use this pronoun or you're fired. The city of New York has the law I posted up there, and you can be fined for not following it. How's that not forcing someone to do something against their will?

Agree to disagree on how we personally view the transgender community. My question is about being forced to use their pronouns.

 

[DOS_patos]

Wait.....a grown conversation where two men agree to disagree with an insult or address given?

:cry:

The mature IC is among us.

We grow'ed up yall

 

[Dwayne]

The truth is if I wanna call you sir or address you as a man if I don’t know your name I will. I don’t have to disrespect my intelligence for somebody else.

I mean if you a man and became something else and you wanna be call Ashley, I will call you Ashley.

But the fact is you will never be a woman or a man regardless of what you think you are.

 

[mryounggun]

Haha bruh, I know talking in circles can be frustrating, so I'm glad we knocked out 4 of 5. I'm down to let it go, but first just help me understand how you don't view this as forcing someone to do something? A government employer told a man use this pronoun or you're fired. The city of New York has the law I posted up there, and you can be fined for not following it. How's that not forcing someone to do something against their will?

Agree to disagree on how we personally view the transgender community. My question is about being forced to use their pronouns.

I gotcha.

Because they can work somewhere else. Somewhere that doesn't require you to address them a certain way. They have choices. The choices are to abide by the regulations of whatever organization we're talking about...or no longer be a part of an organization.

It's like any other job. Take my job for instance. My job requires me to do certain things. But I have the choice of doing them and continuing to work where I work...or I can NOT and find somewhere else to work. My boss isn't forcing me to facilitate these meetings and go over this information. The job has a set go guidelines that I must agree to in order to work here. I agreed to them. So I still have a job.

They're only 'forced' to refer to people as they're preferred pronouns if they want to continue their employment. ACTUALLY forcing someone to do something means that have no option or say so in doing it. That's why they have to be 'forced'. If there are options available to NOT do a thing, then it isn't force.

 

[konceptjones]

5. Force - involving physical, often violent, strength or power. Who is forcing you to call a non-binary person 'them'?

Teacher fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns

A Virginia high school teacher who refused to use a transgender student’s new pronouns has been fired for insubordination, according to the school system.

www.nbcnews.com

U.K. Doctor Claims He Was Fired For Rejecting “Gender Fluid” Pronouns | Human Events

Dr. David Mackareth claims he was fired for his refusal to

humanevents.com

Ohio professor sues school, doesn't want to use transgender students' pronouns

An Ohio professor is suing in federal court after he was punished for not using referring to a transgender student by the pronouns she requested.

www.cincinnati.com

The threat of loss of livelihood is enough. Public shaming is enough. Shit ain't gotta be physical anymore, they get you where it really hurts these days; your wallet and your reputation.

 

[mryounggun]

Teacher fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns

A Virginia high school teacher who refused to use a transgender student’s new pronouns has been fired for insubordination, according to the school system.

www.nbcnews.com

U.K. Doctor Claims He Was Fired For Rejecting “Gender Fluid” Pronouns | Human Events

Dr. David Mackareth claims he was fired for his refusal to

humanevents.com

Ohio professor sues school, doesn't want to use transgender students' pronouns

An Ohio professor is suing in federal court after he was punished for not using referring to a transgender student by the pronouns she requested.

www.cincinnati.com

The threat of loss of livelihood is enough. Public shaming is enough. Shit ain't gotta be physical anymore, they get you where it really hurts these days; your wallet and your reputation.

Agreed with the bolded. And yet and still...that ain't being 'forced'. That's my only point with that. We can dress it up however. That won't change the facts.

 

[konceptjones]

Agreed with the bolded. And yet and still...that ain't being 'forced'. That's my only point with that. We can dress it up however. That won't change the facts.

but it is being forced: Comply with our demands or risk losing everything.

 

[Bow to Royalty]

I gotcha.

Because they can work somewhere else. Somewhere that doesn't require you to address them a certain way. They have choices. The choices are to abide by the regulations of whatever organization we're talking about...or no longer be a part of an organization.

It's like any other job. Take my job for instance. My job requires me to do certain things. But I have the choice of doing them and continuing to work where I work...or I can NOT and find somewhere else to work. My boss isn't forcing me to facilitate these meetings and go over this information. The job has a set go guidelines that I must agree to in order to work here. I agreed to them. So I still have a job.

They're only 'forced' to refer to people as they're preferred pronouns if they want to continue their employment. ACTUALLY forcing someone to do something means that have no option or say so in doing it. That's why they have to be 'forced'. If there are options available to NOT do a thing, then it isn't force.

Ok, we may have quickly found where we disagree here. So, as an example if someone is forcing someone else to give them their money. In your eyes the only possible way for that to happen is for them to physically overpower them and rip it from their hands? And you wouldn't say I'm forced to pay our federal taxes because I could choose to move to another country or go to jail?

 

[mryounggun]

but it is being forced: Comply with our demands or risk losing everything.

The very fact that the bolded part of the sentence exists means they aren't being forced. Being 'forced' means there is only one option, and that option is whatever the person is being 'forced' to do. There are other options here besides using the correct terms to refer to a trans person. That option is to lose you job. Simple.

If you tell me to hit a newborn in the head with a brick or lose my job...I'm gonna choose to lose my job and find another one. You know why? Because ain't nobody gonna force me to hit a newborn baby in the head with a brick. So I chose to lose my job instead. I had the option of hitting the baby. I chose not to. The consequence is that I no longer have a job.

See how that works?

 

[mryounggun]

Ok, we may have quickly found where we disagree here. So, as an example if someone is forcing someone else to give them their money. In your eyes the only possible way for that to happen is for them to physically overpower them and rip it from their hands? And you wouldn't say I'm forced to pay our federal taxes because I could choose to move to another country or go to jail?

The bolded example doesn't work, because in that scenario we'd be talking about the LEGAL definition of force. But as far as the tax question, yes, correct.

See what I mean, in terms of disagreeing on fundamental things that prevent us from ever agreeing on the topic at hand?

 

[SeaSnake]

we are....and my sexuality doesnt define my gender.

I hate to go down this road...but this aint the way we were made.
this shit is a product of lack of male guidance and leadership and confusion. and lastly fright. It is almost looked at like a straight black male is the overly aggressive abuser of our community.

and fuck that....we are being oppressed.
fuck i gotta defend a dudes feminine sexuality now? all while we also calling alot of black men toxic masculine?

nah

I see what you saying. I don’t think they asking for defense or to offend. If a dude wants to be called a woman who am i

we are....and my sexuality doesnt define my gender.

I hate to go down this road...but this aint the way we were made.
this shit is a product of lack of male guidance and leadership and confusion. and lastly fright. It is almost looked at like a straight black male is the overly aggressive abuser of our community.

and fuck that....we are being oppressed.
fuck i gotta defend a dudes feminine sexuality now? all while we also calling alot of black men toxic masculine?

nah

It’s literally been gay humans for 1000s of years and it’s been lbgqt all the time. Most people aren’t gay or lbgqt. They not out to convert nobody. Never seen a black gay person every oppress a black straight person. What are humans made to do? We not supposed to kill but how many wars we have?

I get it y’all don’t like it think it’s unnatural think it came from white folks or soy milk or gay agendas and all that. But to me just because something is weird does not mean I go out my way to cause a scene or argue with a stranger about how they I’d.

This ain’t like somebody putting on black face. A tomboy ain’t offensive to anybody manhood. Nor is Ru Paul. Straight people have no issues holding hands in public or being freaky and people respect it. Now I don’t think black men go out our way to disrespect the lbgqt community tho. I think white dudes hold that. All I’m saying is how does what other people do that does not cause harm become our business

 

[SeaSnake]

Teacher fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns

A Virginia high school teacher who refused to use a transgender student’s new pronouns has been fired for insubordination, according to the school system.

www.nbcnews.com

U.K. Doctor Claims He Was Fired For Rejecting “Gender Fluid” Pronouns | Human Events

Dr. David Mackareth claims he was fired for his refusal to

humanevents.com

Ohio professor sues school, doesn't want to use transgender students' pronouns

An Ohio professor is suing in federal court after he was punished for not using referring to a transgender student by the pronouns she requested.

www.cincinnati.com

The threat of loss of livelihood is enough. Public shaming is enough. Shit ain't gotta be physical anymore, they get you where it really hurts these days; your wallet and your reputation.

And they deserve it. So because their personal belief does not roll with something they should be allowed to disrespect based off not liking it. It’s a job it ain’t about your politics. They knew wtf they signed up for and knew the consequences

 

[SeaSnake]

If we don’t have to call them what they ask what’s to stop white people from calling us nigger using the same argument. We would hope they get fired and beat up

 

[konceptjones]

And they deserve it. So because their personal belief does not roll with something they should be allowed to disrespect based off not liking it. It’s a job it ain’t about your politics. They knew wtf they signed up for and knew the consequences

Except that all of this shit is new. This wasn't a part of the deal when they signed up, it was added after the fact. And if it's their "personal politics" at play, wouldn't it also be the transperson's personal politics forcing this shit down their throat?

 

[konceptjones]

If we don’t have to call them what they ask what’s to stop white people from calling us nigger using the same argument. We would hope they get fired and beat up

You and I both know that aint even the same so quit being intellectually dishonest. No other word carries with it the amount of pain, suffering, death, and destruction as "Nigger". Nigger says we're property, nigger says we're subhuman, nigger is there before you open your mouth, nigger is seen as you walk down the street, nigger is always with you no matter what you do and how you might try to hide, nigger says so much more than that... What does "she/her" or "he/him" carry with it??? Tranny??? Faggot???

Shit ain't even in the building.

 

[SeaSnake]

Except that all of this shit is new. This wasn't a part of the deal when they signed up, it was added after the fact. And if it's their "personal politics" at play, wouldn't it also be the transperson's personal politics forcing this shit down their throat?

But the trans person ain’t asking to be called something that’s offensive tho? They not sayin yo address me as bitch?

 

[SeaSnake]

You and I both know that aint even the same so quit being intellectually dishonest. No other word carries with it the amount of pain, suffering, death, and destruction as "Nigger". Nigger says we're property, nigger says we're subhuman, nigger is there before you open your mouth, nigger is seen as you walk down the street, nigger is always with you no matter what you do and how you might try to hide, nigger says so much more than that... What does "she/her" or "he/him" carry with it??? Tranny??? Faggot???

Shit ain't even in the building.

I know they not the same bro. But calling somebody what they respectfully want to be called hurts whom? Like why intentionally be a dick about it? Then further complain when people don’t take that POV on it?