Welcome To aBlackWeb

Register

HipHop Hasn't Done Anything Good For Black People

AP3.0 said:
There's a huge ass disconnect happening here

Drugs and impoverished communities have existed well before an up jumped the boogie.

Hip hop made it possible for these things to be brought to the world. Hip hop has its share of blame no doubt, but it ain't for the reasons that have been posted.

Niggas just learned to put that shit on a beat.

I would say the business of hip hop is to blame cause they are the ones who had the power to monetize it and literally control what was played and promoted.

But the art form of hip hop has no business being in this discussion
Click to expand...

Y’all argument ONLY makes sense if you reduce “Hip Hop” to “rap music”.

I’ve been saying this: if Hip Hop is a culture, which I don’t believe any of y’all are arguing that it’s not, there are values, norms, and beliefs that come with that culture.

Are stable 2-parent households a cultural norm of hip-hop? No, it’s broken, single parent homes. Having multiple kids by multiple different women isn’t stigmatized—it is in other cultures.

Is Chasity and sexual discipline a value of hip hop? No the norm is promiscuity.

Is homeownership or land ownership pushed by hip-hop culture? No it’s shallow materialism—European cars, luxury brands, worthless diamond jewelry, etc.

Does hip-hop culture promote any conflict resolution or unity? No it promotes having and antagonizing “opps”

Does hip-hop culture value or celebrate sobriety? No it promotes drug and alcohol use.

Does hip hop culture promote building up the hood? No, it promotes making it out the hood.


Trap culture, gangbanging culture are not Hip-Hop culture but they are huge influences of hip-hop culture, among other things.

Drug dealing, violence, urban decay, single parent households, etc. all existed before Hip-Hop yes absolutely. Hip-Hop culture can’t be blamed for these things. Does Hip-Hop culture offer a counter to the ills that affect the Black community or does it perpetuate it? If we’re being honest the answer is clear, but y’all are being slippery.
 
Stiff said:
Y’all argument ONLY makes sense if you reduce “Hip Hop” to “rap music”.

I’ve been saying this: if Hip Hop is a culture, which I don’t believe any of y’all are arguing that it’s not, there are values, norms, and beliefs that come with that culture.

Are stable 2-parent households a cultural norm of hip-hop? No, it’s broken, single parent homes. Having multiple kids by multiple different women isn’t stigmatized—it is in other cultures.

Is Chasity and sexual discipline a value of hip hop? No the norm is promiscuity.

Is homeownership or land ownership pushed by hip-hop culture? No it’s shallow materialism—European cars, luxury brands, worthless diamond jewelry, etc.

Does hip-hop culture promote any conflict resolution or unity? No it promotes having and antagonizing “opps”

Does hip-hop culture value or celebrate sobriety? No it promotes drug and alcohol use.

Does hip hop culture promote building up the hood? No, it promotes making it out the hood.


Trap culture, gangbanging culture are not Hip-Hop culture but they are huge influences of hip-hop culture, among other things.

Drug dealing, violence, urban decay, single parent households, etc. all existed before Hip-Hop yes absolutely. Hip-Hop culture can’t be blamed for these things. Does Hip-Hop culture offer a counter to the ills that affect the Black community or does it perpetuate it? If we’re being honest the answer is clear, but y’all are being slippery.
Click to expand...
we-got-him-we-got-em.gif
 
Stiff said:
Y’all argument ONLY makes sense if you reduce “Hip Hop” to “rap music”.

I’ve been saying this: if Hip Hop is a culture, which I don’t believe any of y’all are arguing that it’s not, there are values, norms, and beliefs that come with that culture.

Are stable 2-parent households a cultural norm of hip-hop? No, it’s broken, single parent homes. Having multiple kids by multiple different women isn’t stigmatized—it is in other cultures.

Is Chasity and sexual discipline a value of hip hop? No the norm is promiscuity.

Is homeownership or land ownership pushed by hip-hop culture? No it’s shallow materialism—European cars, luxury brands, worthless diamond jewelry, etc.

Does hip-hop culture promote any conflict resolution or unity? No it promotes having and antagonizing “opps”

Does hip-hop culture value or celebrate sobriety? No it promotes drug and alcohol use.

Does hip hop culture promote building up the hood? No, it promotes making it out the hood.


Trap culture, gangbanging culture are not Hip-Hop culture but they are huge influences of hip-hop culture, among other things.

Drug dealing, violence, urban decay, single parent households, etc. all existed before Hip-Hop yes absolutely. Hip-Hop culture can’t be blamed for these things. Does Hip-Hop culture offer a counter to the ills that affect the Black community or does it perpetuate it? If we’re being honest the answer is clear, but y’all are being slippery.
Click to expand...
Well written response fam

I go back to whoever said if rapping began as people telling the stories of their community and those conditions have not improved, herein lies the issue, at least imo

You improve these conditions significantly to the point where it's no longer a subject to draw inspiration from, then this aspect of rap goes away with it. Won't happen overnight cause you'll have the papa doc rappers of the world who despite never grew up in those conditions, will glorify it cause they can monetize it.
 
TTBF said:
What I'm doing isn't "blaiming" hiphop I'm just pointing out moments where hiphops negativity and real life collide and aren't doing any good for the community since yall refuse to acknowledge it as a possibility.

But like I said you niggas have been repeatedly missing the point.
Click to expand...

You can sidestep and say you arent blaming hip hop but you "pointing out moments where hiphops negativity..." is essentially putting blame on hop hop.. whether it's outright or partially. Which sometimes, yes.. it can and does share the blame. I'm just not with the absolutes
 
Inori said:
You can sidestep and say you arent blaming hip hop but you "pointing out moments where hiphops negativity..." is essentially putting blame on hop hop.. whether it's outright or partially. Which sometimes, yes.. it can and does share the blame. I'm just not with the absolutes
Click to expand...
Word so you agree. Say less.
 
AP3.0 said:
Well written response fam

I go back to whoever said if rapping began as people telling the stories of their community and those conditions have not improved, herein lies the issue, at least imo

You improve these conditions significantly to the point where it's no longer a subject to draw inspiration from, then this aspect of rap goes away with it. Won't happen overnight cause you'll have the papa doc rappers of the world who despite never grew up in those conditions, will glorify it cause they can monetize it.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

I used to believe this but now I don’t know if it’s that cut and dry. The hood was more violent in 1980 than it is now(according to crime data) but the music is more violent now with drill rap and even rappers like Drake rapping about ordering hits.
 
Stiff said:
Y’all argument ONLY makes sense if you reduce “Hip Hop” to “rap music”.

I’ve been saying this: if Hip Hop is a culture, which I don’t believe any of y’all are arguing that it’s not, there are values, norms, and beliefs that come with that culture.

Are stable 2-parent households a cultural norm of hip-hop? No, it’s broken, single parent homes. Having multiple kids by multiple different women isn’t stigmatized—it is in other cultures.

Is Chasity and sexual discipline a value of hip hop? No the norm is promiscuity.

Is homeownership or land ownership pushed by hip-hop culture? No it’s shallow materialism—European cars, luxury brands, worthless diamond jewelry, etc.

Does hip-hop culture promote any conflict resolution or unity? No it promotes having and antagonizing “opps”

Does hip-hop culture value or celebrate sobriety? No it promotes drug and alcohol use.

Does hip hop culture promote building up the hood? No, it promotes making it out the hood.


Trap culture, gangbanging culture are not Hip-Hop culture but they are huge influences of hip-hop culture, among other things.

Drug dealing, violence, urban decay, single parent households, etc. all existed before Hip-Hop yes absolutely. Hip-Hop culture can’t be blamed for these things. Does Hip-Hop culture offer a counter to the ills that affect the Black community or does it perpetuate it? If we’re being honest the answer is clear, but y’all are being slippery.
Click to expand...

This is actually your best response in the thread. Shit better than any of the others claiming they're making the same points.

To counter, and I say this because I actually wrote a paper when I was in college about Hip Hop as a social movement, nobody has denied the negative things that influenced hip hop and the ways that hip hop has been a negative influence. That pov is something created because the idea of nuance and a topic having more than 1 talking points is hard for some posters to grasp.

To your question of does hip hop provide a counter to the ills of the Black community. Yes it does and some of those things were listed yet dismissed as "individual benefits". And that is the same thing those ills you listed can be seen as too. As not everyone or even the majority of folks who engage in hip hop, whether through music, grafitti, TV, movies etc reflect those ills. You've got plenty of people within hip hop who do promote and engage in things that promote family units, entrepreneurship, education, peace and community building, and many other things. It offers those who choose to a chance in many areas and careers that some may not have even been aware of existed.

Even if you look at what's seen as the "leaders" of hip hop culture they're not the over the top imagery you're reflecting in your post. Just look at the rapper who possibly had a bigger year than anyone else. Kendrick Lamar. The man came into the game with his 1st major single "Swimming Pools" being about not drinking and the dangers of overindulgence.

Many of the things you listed as being promoted by hip hop are just reflections of American culture overall and the idea that hip hop would be immune to that is what is leading people to think and expect alot more from something that is no different than any other "culture
 
BlackRain said:
This is actually your best response in the thread. Shit better than any of the others claiming they're making the same points.

To counter, and I say this because I actually wrote a paper when I was in college about Hip Hop as a social movement, nobody has denied the negative things that influenced hip hop and the ways that hip hop has been a negative influence. That pov is something created because the idea of nuance and a topic having more than 1 talking points is hard for some posters to grasp.

To your question of does hip hop provide a counter to the ills of the Black community. Yes it does and some of those things were listed yet dismissed as "individual benefits". And that is the same thing those ills you listed can be seen as too. As not everyone or even the majority of folks who engage in hip hop, whether through music, grafitti, TV, movies etc reflect those ills. You've got plenty of people within hip hop who do promote and engage in things that promote family units, entrepreneurship, education, peace and community building, and many other things. It offers those who choose to a chance in many areas and careers that some may not have even been aware of existed.

Even if you look at what's seen as the "leaders" of hip hop culture they're not the over the top imagery you're reflecting in your post. Just look at the rapper who possibly had a bigger year than anyone else. Kendrick Lamar. The man came into the game with his 1st major single "Swimming Pools" being about not drinking and the dangers of overindulgence.

Many of the things you listed as being promoted by hip hop are just reflections of American culture overall and the idea that hip hop would be immune to that is what is leading people to think and expect alot more from something that is no different than any other "culture
Click to expand...
This discussion went off on tangents but the bolded to me is what’s at the heart of the disconnect in this discussion and was even addressed in the video posted in the OP.

Does everything that benefits individuals in a community benefit the community as a whole? I say no because nearly everything benefits somebody. But if the net effect is either neutral or negative then the community is not benefiting. Nino Brown employed a TON of people and put tons of money in a lot of people’s pocket.

There are people who are part of hip-hop culture who do promote and engage in uplifting and positive things, no doubt. But I would argue they’re not doing it in accordance with “hip-hop values”, similar to how there are tons of surfers who adhere to “surf culture” that go to college. I grant you that entrepreneurship is something that is deeply engrained in the hip-hop mindset. But the other examples you gave (family units, education, peace and community building) are not. They are not prominent parts of discussion on any major hip-hop media platforms. They’re not really a part of the zeitgeist for hip-hop. Compare this to Asian-American culture where the NORM is to have two parents, and three generations under one roof and the kids are EXPECTED to achieve academic success.

Kendrick Lamar and J Cole are both leaders and prominent figures within the culture. But the messaging and themes they present in their music and examples they set with their lives are outliers. For every song like “Swimming Pools” I can drop 50 songs by artists like Future, Young Thug, Lil Durk, etc. celebrating drug abuse.

There are certain things that are endemic to the Black side of town of nearly every major American city that you don’t see on the other parts of town to the same extent. Namely violent crime and broken homes. These are the things that make “the hood” seem so hopeless at times. The majority of the people in the hood aren’t violent, but the majority of the people will feel the effects of this violence.

Hip-Hop is not making people violent or join gangs or have children out of wedlock. But it’s also not stigmatizing or discouraging these things. There’s also nothing in hip-hop that promotes community involvement or unity. The fact these things may happen is despite hip-hop culture and the mentality and priorities it inspires; not because of it.
 
Stiff said:
This discussion went off on tangents but the bolded to me is what’s at the heart of the disconnect in this discussion and was even addressed in the video posted in the OP.

Does everything that benefits individuals in a community benefit the community as a whole? I say no because nearly everything benefits somebody. But if the net effect is either neutral or negative then the community is not benefiting. Nino Brown employed a TON of people and put tons of money in a lot of people’s pocket.

There are people who are part of hip-hop culture who do promote and engage in uplifting and positive things, no doubt. But I would argue they’re not doing it in accordance with “hip-hop values”, similar to how there are tons of surfers who adhere to “surf culture” that go to college. I grant you that entrepreneurship is something that is deeply engrained in the hip-hop mindset. But the other examples you gave (family units, education, peace and community building) are not. They are not prominent parts of discussion on any major hip-hop media platforms. They’re not really a part of the zeitgeist for hip-hop. Compare this to Asian-American culture where the NORM is to have two parents, and three generations under one roof and the kids are EXPECTED to achieve academic success.

Kendrick Lamar and J Cole are both leaders and prominent figures within the culture. But the messaging and themes they present in their music and examples they set with their lives are outliers. For every song like “Swimming Pools” I can drop 50 songs by artists like Future, Young Thug, Lil Durk, etc. celebrating drug abuse.

There are certain things that are endemic to the Black side of town of nearly every major American city that you don’t see on the other parts of town to the same extent. Namely violent crime and broken homes. These are the things that make “the hood” seem so hopeless at times. The majority of the people in the hood aren’t violent, but the majority of the people will feel the effects of this violence.

Hip-Hop is not making people violent or join gangs or have children out of wedlock. But it’s also not stigmatizing or discouraging these things. There’s also nothing in hip-hop that promotes community involvement or unity. The fact these things may happen is despite hip-hop culture and the mentality and priorities it inspires; not because of it.
Click to expand...

You can factually say there's nothing in hip hop that promotes community involvement or unity. That's probably false. It's also interesting you don't want to attribute the people who you do admit promote positive things as not being of hip hop but have no issue ascribing negativity and giving little to no wiggle room on that. Comparing Asian American culture, which is broad as fuck, to hip hop culture which encompasses multiple races and ethnicities is also a bad comparison.

Alot of your posts, and many others revolving around this topic, always seem to indicate a lower view of Black folks vs everyone else. I mean you spent literal pages trying to argue that somehow Black kids given the same resources as any other group would still underperform. Your issue doesn't seem to be with hip hop. Those things you named as endemic to most Black sides of town...if it's that common then you'd know there's outside forces affecting those things. So if you can be aware of that then you should also be able to be aware of the fact that hip hop existing ain't the main cause of the problems you're pointing out. It's a reflection of them but it ain't the cause.

The mentality you're talking about again is no different than the capitalism over everything mentality that Americaness in general breeds. Hip Hop ain't your problem and minimizing the other factors to focus on hip hop is going to lead only to more problems and not actual solutions.
 
BlackRain said:
You can factually say there's nothing in hip hop that promotes community involvement or unity. That's probably false. It's also interesting you don't want to attribute the people who you do admit promote positive things as not being of hip hop but have no issue ascribing negativity and giving little to no wiggle room on that. Comparing Asian American culture, which is broad as fuck, to hip hop culture which encompasses multiple races and ethnicities is also a bad comparison.
Click to expand...
You keep trying to deflect the discussion from one of “culture” and “community” to one of individuals to prove your point. You pointing to “individuals” to support your case doesn’t negate the broad cultural norms of hip hop that I think we both know to be true. Me referencing Asian-American culture, while admittedly broad, was to illustrate the extent to which cultural family norms can vary within an American context.

BlackRain said:
Alot of your posts, and many others revolving around this topic, always seem to indicate a lower view of Black folks vs everyone else. I mean you spent literal pages trying to argue that somehow Black kids given the same resources as any other group would still underperform. Your issue doesn't seem to be with hip hop. Those things you named as endemic to most Black sides of town...if it's that common then you'd know there's outside forces affecting those things. So if you can be aware of that then you should also be able to be aware of the fact that hip hop existing ain't the main cause of the problems you're pointing out. It's a reflection of them but it ain't the cause.
Click to expand...
This is a strawman and I don’t want to go down the education rabbit hole again but you’re mischaracterizing my claim. I didn’t argue that “Black kids given the same resources as any other group would still underperform” as if it was a hypothetical . I pointed to multiple specific instances of Black children having equal access to resources and still underperforming relative to other groups. From there I theorized that a difference in cultural values could be an explanation.

Nowhere have I denied outside factors that contribute to the state of Black communities. But what it seems like you’re now trying to do is to minimize the agency that people within a community have to effect change within it.

I may even have a higher view of Black people than you because I truly believe Black people have the ability to improve our own situation in this country WITHOUT outside help—but it would require a mental and cultural shift. Step one of that shift would require denouncing certain norms.
BlackRain said:
The mentality you're talking about again is no different than the capitalism over everything mentality that Americaness in general breeds. Hip Hop ain't your problem and minimizing the other factors to focus on hip hop is going to lead only to more problems and not actual solutions.
Click to expand...

I don’t blame hip-hop for what’s wrong. I blame hip-hop for not touting, celebrating, promoting, or valuing the counter to what’s wrong.
 
Stiff said:
You keep trying to deflect the discussion from one of “culture” and “community” to one of individuals to prove your point. You pointing to “individuals” to support your case doesn’t negate the broad cultural norms of hip hop that I think we both know to be true. Me referencing Asian-American culture, while admittedly broad, was to illustrate the extent to which cultural family norms can vary within an American context.


This is a strawman and I don’t want to go down the education rabbit hole again but you’re mischaracterizing my claim. I didn’t argue that “Black kids given the same resources as any other group would still underperform” as if it was a hypothetical . I pointed to multiple specific instances of Black children having equal access to resources and still underperforming relative to other groups. From there I theorized that a difference in cultural values could be an explanation.

Nowhere have I denied outside factors that contribute to the state of Black communities. But what it seems like you’re now trying to do is to minimize the agency that people within a community have to effect change within it.

I may even have a higher view of Black people than you because I truly believe Black people have the ability to improve our own situation in this country WITHOUT outside help—but it would require a mental and cultural shift. Step one of that shift would require denouncing certain norms.


I don’t blame hip-hop for what’s wrong. I blame hip-hop for not touting, celebrating, promoting, or valuing the counter to what’s wrong.
Click to expand...

If those things you want to keep dismissing as individual achievement aren't able to be part of hip hop then why do you insist on touting the failures as part of hip hop? That's not an accurate comparison at all. It's a distorted one that leans towards your pov.

If your opinion is that it's one of cultural values then you're also not being accurate in accounting for the multitude of different cultures even amongst Black people that encompass those who consider themselves a part of Hip Hop culture. Debating who has a higher view of Black people is pointless because it can't be quantified, but you're the one who has been harping on the deficiencies amongst young Black kids while others have been highlighting how many thrive in spite of their circumstances and do that partially or more through hip hop as a medium.

Some of us are saying "despite the hardships many seem to find a way. And some use hip hop as a vehicle." That's shift in cultural norms would still have to be expressed and spread in some way. And the fact that you acknowledge that a shift in cultural norms can happen means you should be able to see that hip hop ain’t the problem. It's the values of people as a whole that need changing. Eliminating or minimizing the influence of hip hop wouldn't change peoples mentality because hip hop ain't the cause of that. Life in general is. Change people circumstances and you can change their mentality. You know where you see that happen alot? Hip Hop.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top