konceptjones
The one between three and three.
Very different.
Guns in America
- Thread starter RusselWilsonJr
- Start date
Very different.
SeaSnake
OG
Minus the 2 pages discussing automatic vs semi automatic how would it be different?
konceptjones
The one between three and three.
Because a total ban on all firearms is a completely different discussion from banning certain types of guns for misguided reasons.
That's when we really get into the crux of the 2A discussion and it goes from the guns themselves to the government and whether or not we really trust it enough for all of that.
SeaSnake
OG
Well let’s get to the real conversation
PhenomTheMac
OG
First respect for reading the article and citing areas you took issue you with.
In response (https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...4-assault-weapons-ban-ended/story?id=65546858):
Your first point is pretty pedantic so moving towards your second with the above quotes. The bill specifically prohibited the possession of semiautomatic assault weapons. And the years during the bills existence did coincide with a drop in gun crimes using such weapons.
In actuality the issue with the bill very well may have been that it didn't go far enough. It did not work retroactively and such weapons that were obtained prior to the bills passing were not affected. And ultimately it was found to not do enough to rein in other non-banned weapons that could be modified to hold large capacity magazines.
But as a blueprint for doing *something* there are worse places to start. Alterations would surely need to be made to meet whatever issues have risen in prominence since the sunsetting of the original bill. But that's what congress is for; to craft legislation according to the issues of the day, and gun violence in America certainly qualifies.
Last time we had such a discussion, you made some pretty salient suggestions on things that could be implemented to help in this issue. That's why it's so frustrating that you consistently take the position that you do in these debates. You clearly and obviously recognize the issue, but you get so deep in the weeds that you spend exponentially more time defending increasingly myopic points than actually offering any actual solutions.
Like this country has a gun violence problem; debating on classes of firearms is pretty far from the actual point and I'm pretty sure you know that.
konceptjones
The one between three and three.
My position for pretty much everything is "Know what you're talking about before you open your mouth to speak". You cannot have a legitimate discussion or debate without a core, fundamental knowledge of the topic particularly when considering drafting legislation. When @Alle’Oxin’Free #1: couldn't define "semi automatic" and #2 asked "is a Glock 9 semi automatic?" and #3 refused to alter his way of thinking when shown he was in error I knew then it was pretty much useless even having a conversation with him. And I would be willing to bet that the majority of the non-gun owning public and much of Congress are at that same level of understanding.
THAT @PhenomTheMac is what's frustrating to me. Here we all are, on the internet, the collected knowledge of human existence available at our fingertips, and no one appears to bother to go look up these terms that get thrown around so much to see whether it makes a difference or not. It 100% makes a difference. When things are clearly defined and everyone is on the same page as to what it is that we're discussing then meaningful discourse can happen. But if one side clings to misinformation and an ill understanding of the core of the discussion, then you get someone like me pointing out that misinformation and someone like Germs refusing to listen 'cause he can't let go of what he erroneously understood to be truth.
With regards to this issue: Gun violence is as American as apple pie. It's ingrained in this country's history and culture. Gun violence is how this country was founded, how the land was acquired, how everything was built. It's how Natives and Africans were kept as slaves, it's how we took the western frontier from Spain. It's how we detached ourselves from England.
We are the very embodiment of gun violence.
Unless we forced every gun manufacturer to stop making guns, and forcibly went house to house to collect all guns in private hands, gun violence in this country will not go away.
So then, what do we do? I've repeatedly proposed strengthening red flag laws because I went back and read about a number of mass shootings to see if I could find a common thread between the shooters and I found one. Nearly every one of these shooters had been considered a threat to themselves and others and had at least one run-in with the cops prior to them shooting up a group of people. Strengthen and enforce those laws and I believe you will stop many of these shootings.
While raising the minimum age to buy a long gun wouldn't necessarily have stopped a lot of these shootings, do it anyways. This was suggested by another poster and while I did point out that doing so wouldn't have actually stopped a lot of shootings, I support raising the age to 21.
Magazine capacity restrictions have proven pretty useless. Just look at gang violence in the hood in California. They have a 10 round restriction but that hasn't stopped multiple people from being shot or killed in gang related shit. The Michigan State and VA Tech shooters have shown that these shooters are more than willing to carry multiple magazines with them as well so there goes that.
I'm open to other viewpoints, but that's a start.
Eyerone
(i·ro·ny)
@Alle’Oxin’Free if it makes you feel better, they just passed legislation here in WA that bans “assault weapons”.
It will do nothing to change gun violence here but hey, the law is there. Most of the gun violence is done with handguns, so yeah. This law will not stop the next mass shooter from shooting up a soft target.
It will do nothing to change gun violence here but hey, the law is there. Most of the gun violence is done with handguns, so yeah. This law will not stop the next mass shooter from shooting up a soft target.
RusselWilsonJr
Who do you think you are? I am
Gun violence is a reality when living in a country where the right to have guns is written into law. I personally don’t like the fact that citizens can have any guns, personally. That’s a personally belief, but realistically I know the base line reasons behind the amendment.
And it being so ingrained in our country that people really believe they should have them. And as long as they are put in the hands of humans, Some humans will use them ignorantly. I can concede that and realistically am not fighting against that.
However some weapons, should not be in the hands of any citizens. Some weapons aren’t meant for hunting. Some weapons aren’t meant for defense. Some weapons are meant for war. Weapons that are meant for war should not be in the hands of civilians. A rocket launcher is meant for war, there’s no reason any civilian should have one.
Grenades, tanks, high caliber rifles where the bullet doesn’t even have to hit you, just the shock wave from the round can kill you, are weapons of war. If you want to get your hands on them, and have the chance to handle them. Join the military.
So my point is not to stop gun violence, that’s impossible, my point is to stop gun violence with specific weapons. I’m not here saying ban shot guns even though they can do more damage than most hand guns.
Guns that can shoot a high number of rounds before having to reload should not be on the street, period. Y’all might be law abiding and responsible civilians, that’s fucking great.
Some people smoke crack on the weekends and don’t hurt nobody. Some people do meth, some people do coke, heroine, acid…all of that and don’t hurt no one. But the country has enough foresight to say, hey…ya know, these things lead to a high number of crime and death. Maybe they shouldn’t be left up to personal responsibility. But beer is legal, and we feel like at the very least it’s such a staple of America that can at least concede to delude ourselves into saying, hey..drink responsibly
Same with hand guns, shot guns and certain hunting rifles. Hey..use responsibility. But as we see with drugs. Some things are too dangerous to be left to delusion.
konceptjones
The one between three and three.
DAWG!!!
You have GOT to stop believing the nonsense Hollywood spews about guns and ammo. Not even a .50BMG can do that shit.
And, yes, it's been tested and debunked and video footage exists.
mike030270
Memes
A lot of wrong to unpack again. Jesus. Didn't you say you're a gun owner too? You need to take a course and talk with someone because you're just... wrong
RusselWilsonJr
Who do you think you are? I am
Im not trying debate or convince you two, I’m speaking to people who are sensible about this issue. If y’all two love guns so much and are enthusiasts who needs anyone to know the absolute specifics of a firearm to argue against how stupid it is that these things are floating around. Then that’s what y’all need, I can tell most sensible people that coke isn’t good for them and drug enthusiasts can tell me I must not be speaking about the non stepped on from Bolivia. Lol, look bro, if that’s what makes you secure in the discussion that’s where you are.
mike030270
Memes
Lol well that's obvious you're not trying to convince or debate because your points have been horribly wrong
It's not about loving guns so much
It honestly sounds like you have a firearm and you don't even know how it works. That's dangerous in itself
konceptjones
The one between three and three.
Stop letting Hollywood dictate to you what a gun can and can't do.
It's just that simple.
You saw some shit in a movie and took that to be real life. I bet you think shit like this is real!
Or a shottie can lift you off your feet
Yeah bruh... none of that shit is real.
mryounggun
OG
This is an interesting thread to be a fly on the wall for. Because I used to fall onto one side of this debate and now I totally fall on the other. And I'm vividly remembering that back when I ain't know what the fuck I was talking about, I basically agreed with what @Alle’Oxin’Free is saying. Then the niggas I was debating with made it clear that I ain't have a clue what I was talking about so I went and did some research.
For whatever any of that is worth.
For whatever any of that is worth.
RusselWilsonJr
Who do you think you are? I am
y’all are perfectly within that realm to feel that way
BRIAN B.
Shittypoobutt
RusselWilsonJr
Who do you think you are? I am
I’ve explained why regular citizens don’t need these guns.
Perhaps you all can explain to me why they do?
Perhaps you all can explain to me why they do?
konceptjones
The one between three and three.
you really haven't. In your head you really believe you did, but you have done nothing of the sort.
RusselWilsonJr
Who do you think you are? I am
Could you please explain why they need to be available?
konceptjones
The one between three and three.
For protection: Ain't nobody defending their homes, loved ones, or themselves with a knife, sword, or nunchaku outchea.
For hunting: Believe it or not, there are some people that still hunt for food. Yes we can get a lot of shit from the supermarket, but some people actually like to eat wild game in the same way some folks prefer to go fishing or to raise chickens to eat them.
Do I need to go further?