Guns in America

[Dwayne]

Jussayin... The number of gun deaths for, IIRC 2022, was around 49,000.

Alcohol-Related Deaths

States and communities can reduce deaths due to excessive drinking.

www.cdc.gov

"Excessive alcohol use was responsible for more than 140,000 deaths in the United States each year during 2015–2019"

Yes, and of those stats, how many people actually did die from a gunshot from someone in the house??? If there were 49,000 gun deaths in a year, I'm willing to bet that only a tiny number of those were due to someone else in the house they lived in pulling the trigger. Those same stats most likely include accidental discharge and suicide, which is what I'm willing to bet are the vast majority of those deaths. So, yeah, that stat makes sense when you look at it as a whole instead of just as a headline.

Does that gun number include suicides? Because if he does that shouldn’t count.

 

[konceptjones]

Does that gun number include suicides? Because if he does that shouldn’t count.

It does as well as numbers of people clearly not children (18 and 19 year olds)

 

[konceptjones]

 

[konceptjones]

Posting this 'cause Colion made some of the very points I did in this and other threads.




Criminals gonna crime, and no law will stop them from getting and using guns, even is we banned them all 100%.

 

[BlackRain]

Interested to see how pro 2A folks try to combat this

 

[konceptjones]

Interested to see how pro 2A folks try to combat this

no one combats this really. I think it's fairly widely accepted that if you've got a DV conviction, whether male or female, you don't get to own a gun.

It's a question on the ATF form everyone fills out when buying a gun.

 

[mike030270]

Interested to see how pro 2A folks try to combat this

Combat what?

Court said it will hear Bidens appeal next term

 

[BlackRain]

no one combats this really. I think it's fairly widely accepted that if you've got a DV conviction, whether male or female, you don't get to own a gun.

It's a question on the ATF form everyone fills out when buying a gun.

If nobody combated it it wouldn't have made it to the Supreme Court

 

[Mr BFK]

Interested to see how pro 2A folks try to combat this

that headliner does say "accused" vs. "convicted" tho

 

[konceptjones]

I went ahead and read the article a couple of times.

As it stands, you have to have a conviction in order to get your gun rights stripped from you. This is fine and I will stand by this wholeheartedly.

What they're trying to do now is strip you of your rights if you're so much as accused of it, no conviction, no diversion, no anything, just an accusation. That's some bullshit. The way I see it, if you have enough evidence for an order of protection, there should be enough evidence for a conviction. Get the conviction THEN take the guns away.

 

[BlackRain]

I went ahead and read the article a couple of times.

As it stands, you have to have a conviction in order to get your gun rights stripped from you. This is fine and I will stand by this wholeheartedly.

What they're trying to do now is strip you of your rights if you're so much as accused of it, no conviction, no diversion, no anything, just an accusation. That's some bullshit. The way I see it, if you have enough evidence for an order of protection, there should be enough evidence for a conviction. Get the conviction THEN take the guns away.

At the bold...you'd think so but unfortunately that shit don't always work like that. Especially when you still have the "boyfriend loophole" that allows people who were convicted of abuse to still have guns so long as it wasn't a marriage in which the abuse occurred.

 

[konceptjones]

At the bold...you'd think so but unfortunately that shit don't always work like that. Especially when you still have the "boyfriend loophole" that allows people who were convicted of abuse to still have guns so long as it wasn't a marriage in which the abuse occurred.

And that's a loophole that should have been closed a long time ago.

The way I see it, if a court reasonably believes you're a threat to someone, there has to be substantial evidence to back that belief. And if there's evidence to back it that can compel a court to issue an order or protection, there's also enough to secure a conviction. This is also where folks need to follow through when they call the cops 'cause their s/o done put hands on them; it helps if you press charges.

Also, this only keeps "law abiding" citizens from buying a gun. A cat like the one in the SCOTUS suit, a known drug dealer, ain't about the buy his heat legally at this point.

 

[TheNightKing]

I think an accusation is enough because murder can happen between the time of accusation and conviction.

Put yourself in a woman’s (or man’s) shoes. You report them to the cops and now you in fear for months as shit plays out in the courts. Dude can show up at any time and blow your brains out.

Flip side, take the gun at accusation and what’s the risk? Dude doesn’t have a gun in the off chance someone breaks in his house? Dude doesn’t have a gun in the off chance someone mugs him?

It’s way more likely dude kills girl than dude has to defend his home. And even if dude does have to defend his home he has options, whereas the woman is done for.

 

[konceptjones]

I think an accusation is enough because murder can happen between the time of accusation and conviction.

Put yourself in a woman’s (or man’s) shoes. You report them to the cops and now you in fear for months as shit plays out in the courts. Dude can show up at any time and blow your brains out.

Flip side, take the gun at accusation and what’s the risk? Dude doesn’t have a gun in the off chance someone breaks in his house? Dude doesn’t have a gun in the off chance someone mugs him?

It’s way more likely dude kills girl than dude has to defend his home. And even if dude does have to defend his home he has options, whereas the woman is done for.

And what part of this stops him (or her) from buying a gun off the street and killing her (or him) anyways?

 

[Mr BFK]

I think an accusation is enough because murder can happen between the time of accusation and conviction.

Put yourself in a woman’s (or man’s) shoes. You report them to the cops and now you in fear for months as shit plays out in the courts. Dude can show up at any time and blow your brains out.

Flip side, take the gun at accusation and what’s the risk? Dude doesn’t have a gun in the off chance someone breaks in his house? Dude doesn’t have a gun in the off chance someone mugs him?

It’s way more likely dude kills girl than dude has to defend his home. And even if dude does have to defend his home he has options, whereas the woman is done for.

of course u believe the underlined.....why am I not surprised

u say what's the risk but u willing to give govt officials way too much power over an accusation

let's say I'm actually the abuser and I want my gf to be defenseless.......so I "accuse" her of threatening me with a gun so I can ensure she is unarmed and unable to legally protect herself


u saying it's ok to take away her right to defend herself over an unproven accusation?

 

[TheNightKing]

And what part of this stops him (or her) from buying a gun off the street and killing her (or him) anyways?

The point is reduction, not 100% prevention. Make it more difficult for someone to achieve that goal. For the average Joe, it’s difficult to find a street dealer of weapons. I know that’s hard to fathom for folks so close to street activities, but it’s true.

 

[TheNightKing]

of course u believe the underlined.....why am I not surprised

u say what's the risk but u willing to give govt officials way too much power over an accusation

let's say I'm actually the abuser and I want my gf to be defenseless.......so I "accuse" her of threatening me with a gun so I can ensure she is unarmed and unable to legally protect herself


u saying it's ok to take away her right to defend herself over an unproven accusation?

That’s pretty far fetched scenario. Why am I not surprised.

In the unlikely event this might happen, that’s where judgement comes into play, either from the arresting officer or judge.

Given the facts of a case similar to what you describe, no officer/judge in their right mind is believing the guy who wants his girl disarmed so he can kill her.

Remember, an accusation most likely has to be substantiated by the intervention of law enforcement. I can’t just file a complaint and that be considered an accusation worthy of disarming.

 

[konceptjones]

The point is reduction, not 100% prevention. Make it more difficult for someone to achieve that goal. For the average Joe, it’s difficult to find a street dealer of weapons. I know that’s hard to fathom for folks so close to street activities, but it’s true.

I just took a look... As of right now, any person hit with a restraining order cannot buy or possess a gun or ammunition per ATF rules. That gets you 10 years of fed time for violating it.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/guide/protection-orders-and-federal-firearms-prohibitions-atf-i-33102/download

So now I gotta wonder what this is really all about???

 

[Mr BFK]

That’s pretty far fetched scenario. Why am I not surprised.

In the unlikely event this might happen, that’s where judgement comes into play, either from the arresting officer or judge.

Given the facts of a case similar to what you describe, no officer/judge in their right mind is believing the guy who wants his girl disarmed so he can kill her.

Remember, an accusation most likely has to be substantiated by the intervention of law enforcement. I can’t just file a complaint and that be considered an accusation worthy of disarming.

what's far fetched about it?

u think it's rare that people make false accusations to authorities?

and u think it's best to leave it to the judgment of police/judges?


and women accuse men of domestic violence all the time where it has been proven later that the man was innocent

it's not a majority of the time type accusation.........but too many men have had their lives ruined over false accusations enough to where I don't see how a reasonable person can trust govt authority to do the right thing

u give way too much credit to our flawed legal system

 

[TheNightKing]

what's far fetched about it?

u think it's rare that people make false accusations to authorities?

and u think it's best to leave it to the judgment of police/judges?


and women accuse men of domestic violence all the time where it has been proven later that the man was innocent

it's not a majority of the time type accusation.........but too many men have had their lives ruined over false accusations enough to where I don't see how a reasonable person can trust govt authority to do the right thing

u give way too much credit to our flawed legal system

I’m talking about a scenario where a man falsely accuses a woman in an attempt to get said woman disarmed so he can kill her more easily. That’s very far fetched.