COMMUNITY 6yo student shot a teacher leaving the teacher in critical condition during an altercation at a Virginia elementary school

Regardless of what side of the gun debate you fall on the idea that a 6 year old could've just as easily stabbed that teacher as shooting them is pretty ridiculous. It would be far easier to disarm a knife from a 6 year old, or hell anyone, than a gun. But especially a small child.

Also there's no either/or...both the amount of guns and the culture of guns can both be a problem. And they both are.
 
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PhenomTheMac said:
  1. Assault rifle ban.
  2. Voluntary gun buybacks with no questions asked to incentive reduction of firearms in circulation
  3. Football numbers given out to those who are found in possession of a banned or unregistered firearm. Double if it's also found to have been used in the commission of a crime.
  4. Significant punishment for guns owners whose weapons are used in the commission of a crime without having first been reported as stolen.
  5. A licensing system similar to a drivers license that must be completed prior to purchasing firearms legally. Ie. Safety courses, a learners permit with X amount of hours that must be completed, and varying classes of licenses that permit you to own and/or operate different classes of firearms.
  6. As a part of your licensing you must also show proof of purchase of a proper gun storage safe with verifable space inside at the time of any new purchase.
  7. Also as part of licensing is the creation of a gun registry (again similar to driving and registering your vehicle) that would establish chain of custody for all firearms in the United States.
Click to expand...
Here's the list I provided. So please tell me which of these exist at the federal level? I'll do the work for you, the answer is zero.

No semi auto or pump action bans, no voluntary buybacks, no federal gun registry, no federal safe story mandate. And the punishment for being found with an unregistered firearm varies from state to state.

Mind you, I only ever provided this list because you yourself posed the question of how could we make it harder for criminals to obtain firearms. Even though that has zero baring on the case at hand, I still indulged you.

I listed several things we could do that could reduce the amount of firearms in circulation, increase the penalty for possessing a firearm illegally, and increase the standards required before owning a firearm. And you did not refute anything. You made strawman arguments about how people are inherently violent so there's no point in doing anything about guns. Even though other countries that have taken similar measures have in fact seen a reduction in gun-related violence, but those don't count...for reasons.

You are irrational and unable to be objectionable about this issue due to your own relationship with guns. You somehow equate gun control legislation as an attack on your ability to own a gun which it is not and never will be.

The argument you have offered is remedial and boils down to criminals will be criminals so why do anything? Which is logic that doesn't transfer to literally any other law in existence. You predict that reducing gun availability will somehow lead to a rise in knife violence as if knives don't exist right this very moment. There's a reason people choose guns. They're more effective and American culture is much more intertwined with guns than knives, bombs, acid or whatever else you care to mention. None of that shit addresses the fact that America has and will continue to have a gun problem.
 
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www.euronews.com

Trump's knife crime claim: how do the US and UK compare?

Donald Trump has sought to defend the use of guns stateside by shining a light on knife crime in London. But is the UK really any worse than the US?
www.euronews.com www.euronews.com

There were 34 firearm homicides in the US per million of population in 2016, compared with 0.48 shooting-related murders in the UK.
Knife murders are also higher stateside: there were 4.96 homicides “due to knives or cutting instruments” in the US for every million of population in 2016.
In Britain there were 3.26 homicides involving a sharp instrument per million people in the year from April 2016 to March 2017.

"There is more we can all do to combat this violence, but to suggest guns are part of the solution is ridiculous,” said Professor Karim Brohi, trauma surgeon at the Royal London Hospital. “Gunshot wounds are at least twice as lethal as knife injuries and more difficult to repair."
 
PhenomTheMac said:
  1. Assault rifle ban.
  2. Voluntary gun buybacks with no questions asked to incentive reduction of firearms in circulation
  3. Football numbers given out to those who are found in possession of a banned or unregistered firearm. Double if it's also found to have been used in the commission of a crime.
  4. Significant punishment for guns owners whose weapons are used in the commission of a crime without having first been reported as stolen.
  5. A licensing system similar to a drivers license that must be completed prior to purchasing firearms legally. Ie. Safety courses, a learners permit with X amount of hours that must be completed, and varying classes of licenses that permit you to own and/or operate different classes of firearms.
  6. As a part of your licensing you must also show proof of purchase of a proper gun storage safe with verifable space inside at the time of any new purchase.
  7. Also as part of licensing is the creation of a gun registry (again similar to driving and registering your vehicle) that would establish chain of custody for all firearms in the United States.
That's an incomplete list, there's still mental health provisions and red flag laws that would also make obtaining a firearm legally more difficult for would-be wrongdoers.

With just those few things you can dramatically reduce the amount of unregistered firearms available to criminals and make it harder for would be criminals to obtain them legally. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38365729.amp here's a country that took just those steps as a proof of concept of what can be done with enough political will.)

Now, if a criminal still wants to commit a crime with a gun then they may well go ahead and do so, but that's true of anything illegal. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't respond to the gun epidemic this country clearly has with sensible measures. That is a zero sum argument made by gun manufacturers that don't want to see a dent in their potential market.
Click to expand...

Real quick

The 1994 Assault weapons ban had no effect on gun violence. Fact.

Those gun buybacks dont give people any real money for guns. Most times, they give people gift cards that don’t equate to nearly the amount that the firearm is worth. It’s not an incentive really; it’s more of a feel good thing for people.

“Football numbers” don’t stop people from doing shit. Never has, never will

Lemme stop there for a second. There is no such thing as registered or unregistered gun. There is no federal gun registry and never will be because the government can’t create one. It’s against the rules.

America definitely has a gun problem but it’s ingrained in the fuckin constitution and you can’t undo what’s already been done.
 
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Royal said:
Gun culture in America looks so different depending on the group,. I mean from those who like to hunt to those who preparing for the zombie apocalypse. And all these people have kids that observe or are apart of that lifestyle.

Like even if the mom had it secured , I mean from what I am reading the child had clear intentions and I guess this where the parents accountability come into play. Because if you exposed your child to guns (or have a gun they can get to )and they use them and hurt someone, then it's the parents responsibility to take the consequences.

I do think the 6yr old of today is different than the 6yr old of 1980's. Like not blaming social media or fortnight. But what kids see anywhere can influence them.

I remember when my parents left me home alone and I went snooping in my parents room. I didn't find a gun...I found a dildo lol. But I was a curious child, I probably would have went outside in my backyard and tried to shoot a gun like i was playing duckhunt or something. I once burned up the whole back yard trying to light a bug on fire. So kids do really stupid shit and don't understand the aftermath of it.

Unless we trying to make mandatory gun education classes be apart of public education then changing the culture of guns in America will be a long process.

Most states have a law where if the child uses a gun then the adult is held responsible but the laws allow minors to use guns...

Now alot states don't regulate how you store your gun. Which in this case could have prevented the kid from getting the gun. If you have a minor living with you, I think there should be a law that requires you to store your gun a certain way.

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Click to expand...

I was talking about something similar with one of my sisters. She's down in NC, husband owns a number of AR's and handguns, enough to put a trigger in the hand of everyone in that household. We grew up in a household where my stepfather owned a few shotguns and ALL of us knew where they were and where the ammo was kept (in their closet in the bedroom, ammo was kept in the top drawer of the dresser in the closet). Of the four of us, I was the one that knew how to load and shoot 'em.

Not one of us EVER touched them. Not because we were taught not to, but because we knew these things could kill or seriously hurt someone. To this day I don't think my moms knows we all knew where the shotties were located. My pops and I had a long discussion over dinner back in May and that was brought up as a part of the convo on him being a community leader where he was telling me he used to train others on how to shoot in an old abandoned bar on the outskirts of town. I mentioned his shotguns and he's like "yup, took those out with us too".

There wasn't the fascination with guns as kids back in the 70's and early 80's. Yes, we had cap guns and bb guns, but nobody really wanted to handle a real, bullet shooting gun like they do nowadays. Some kids were taught how to shoot and prolly went hunting when the season came around. The rest of us were content with a Daisy bb gun or a 6 shooter cap gun.

As for maybe making it mandatory to educate kids on gun safety, that might only work in the south. Lotta folks I know and maybe even some of y'all from the south were taught how to shoot a rifle by a relative at a fairly young age and were also taught to respect said rifles. That's something more common out that way than up here in the north.

Storage is key to keeping guns out of the hands of kids. One of my boy's bought a biometric gun safe a few months ago because they found out their oldest swiped his mother's pistol out the room. Caught him with it before he got too far, IIRC one of the neighbors told them they saw him with the gun (and he got his ass beat for it too). Gun locks, gun safes, even a case with a padlock on it works. The only time one of mine is freely accessible is at night when I take either the .22 mag or the 9mm rifle out and keep it either behind my closet door or next to my bed. Past that, they're locked up and so is the ammo.
 
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Eyerone said:
Real quick

The 1994 Assault weapons ban had no effect on gun violence. Fact.

Those gun buybacks dont give people any real money for guns. Most times, they give people gift cards that don’t equate to nearly the amount that the firearm is worth. It’s not an incentive really; it’s more of a feel good thing for people.

“Football numbers” don’t stop people from doing shit. Never has, never will

Lemme stop there for a second. There is no such thing as registered or unregistered gun. There is no federal gun registry and never will be because the government can’t create one. It’s against the rules.

America definitely has a gun problem but it’s ingrained in the fuckin constitution and you can’t undo what’s already been done.
Click to expand...

Some states do require registration for handguns, some even for rifles which I'm dealing with now (the point of contention is that in MI any rifle less than 26" in length has to be registered. My CMR30 is longer than that with the stock extended but can technically be used while collapsed. Neither the county or state police has given me a straight answer on whether I have to register it or not. A dealer that sells the rifle has told me it doesn't and he's never had anyone fill out paperwork to register it with the county for that specific rifle).

When your NICS check is submitted to the FBI, it's also got the manufacturer, model, and serial number of each gun on that form. That's how the ATF does their "surprise" door-to-door checks to see if you still own each firearm (which they only do if you buy several at once). So there's a federal registry SOMEWHERE out there if info collected by the FBI can be acted upon by the ATF.

As to football number not stopping anything: Some states still have the death penalty and a list of folks on it waiting to die. If DEATH doesn't stop crimes, nothing will.
 
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konceptjones said:
Some states do require registration for handguns, some even for rifles which I'm dealing with now (the point of contention is that in MI any rifle less than 26" in length has to be registered. My CMR30 is longer than that with the stock extended but can technically be used while collapsed. Neither the county or state police has given me a straight answer on whether I have to register it or not. A dealer that sells the rifle has told me it doesn't and he's never had anyone fill out paperwork to register it with the county for that specific rifle).

When your NICS check is submitted to the FBI, it's also got the manufacturer, model, and serial number of each gun on that form. That's how the ATF does their "surprise" door-to-door checks to see if you still own each firearm (which they only do if you buy several at once). So there's a federal registry SOMEWHERE out there if info collected by the FBI can be acted upon by the ATF.

As to football number not stopping anything: Some states still have the death penalty and a list of folks on it waiting to die. If DEATH doesn't stop crimes, nothing will.
Click to expand...

I was referring to a federal gun registry.

Here's a quick rundown of the facts:

  • ATF retains records from federally licensed firearms dealers, manufacturers and importers that go out of business. The records include information about gun sales and transfers.
  • The records are stored as digital images that can't be searched for identifying information. The repository is essentially a giant folder full of pictures of forms.
  • ATF can only access the records if a law enforcement agency asks for help tracing a gun linked to a crime
 
Eyerone said:
I was referring to a federal gun registry.

Here's a quick rundown of the facts:

  • ATF retains records from federally licensed firearms dealers, manufacturers and importers that go out of business. The records include information about gun sales and transfers.
  • The records are stored as digital images that can't be searched for identifying information. The repository is essentially a giant folder full of pictures of forms.
  • ATF can only access the records if a law enforcement agency asks for help tracing a gun linked to a crime
Click to expand...

Bruh, if you buy 3 or 4 AR15's or AK's today I guarantee you the ATF will be at your door within 6 months to make sure you still have those guns. They get the info from the FBI as to who bought what and how many were bought. If you're not supposed to have a gun but managed to slip through the cracks and got cleared for sale or the check just took too long to come back and they sell to you anyways (they have 3 days to get it back), the ATF is the group tasked with getting the guns back from you. The data is shared, it's more than just scanned docs and, truthfully, amounts to a registry 'cause they do know who bought what and the serial numbers of the guns are associated with you at the federal level. Now do they share that with the states??? Fuck no, Feds are basically like "y'all on ya own".
 
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konceptjones said:
Bruh, if you buy 3 or 4 AR15's or AK's today I guarantee you the ATF will be at your door within 6 months to make sure you still have those guns. They get the info from the FBI as to who bought what and how many were bought. If you're not supposed to have a gun but managed to slip through the cracks and got cleared for sale or the check just took too long to come back and they sell to you anyways (they have 3 days to get it back), the ATF is the group tasked with getting the guns back from you. The data is shared, it's more than just scanned docs and, truthfully, amounts to a registry 'cause they do know who bought what and the serial numbers of the guns are associated with you at the federal level. Now do they share that with the states??? Fuck no, Feds are basically like "y'all on ya own".
Click to expand...

I’m not disagreeing with what you are saying at all.

All I’m saying is that there is no federal universal gun registry…because there can’t be one.

ATF Myths - Not everything you hear is true | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

www.atf.gov www.atf.gov

www.usatoday.com

Fact check: Claim that ATF has 'gun registry' with 1 billion records is missing context

While the ATF does have hundreds of thousands of records, they are not stored as a registry or able to be searched like a database.
www.usatoday.com
 
Eyerone said:
Real quick

The 1994 Assault weapons ban had no effect on gun violence. Fact.

Those gun buybacks dont give people any real money for guns. Most times, they give people gift cards that don’t equate to nearly the amount that the firearm is worth. It’s not an incentive really; it’s more of a feel good thing for people.

“Football numbers” don’t stop people from doing shit. Never has, never will

Lemme stop there for a second. There is no such thing as registered or unregistered gun. There is no federal gun registry and never will be because the government can’t create one. It’s against the rules.

America definitely has a gun problem but it’s ingrained in the fuckin constitution and you can’t undo what’s already been done.
Click to expand...
Bet.

1994 weapons ban did not go far enough in addressing the loopholes that rendered it ineffective. Similar bans in other countries such as Australia have proven to be more effective.

Eh, not all buybacks are created equal. Some counties have done the gift cards, others have gave ticket giveaways to sporting events and others have given cash. What hasn't been done is a nationwide buyback which would produce a budget for much larger buybacks that theoretically would offer greater incentives to people.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't have deterrents. If the punishment for being in possession of an illegal firearm was a minimum 10 years, then you would have fewer unregistered guns, or you would have more offenders in prison. I'm not advocating more people being locked up so either register it or turn it in for cash.

Well yeah. That's why you'd have to create one by federal law. It would function the same as a DMV issuing out licenses and registrations to qualified parties. The government certainly can create one.

www.cbsnews.com

Sorry, Mandatory Gun Registration Is Constitutional

Second Amendment Advocates Don't Like It, But It May Be Permissible; A Lawsuit Against Washington, D.C. Could Decide The Question
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

Now we don't have the political will to do any of this due to 50 plus years of NRA lobbying. But it's very much possible.
 
PhenomTheMac said:
Bet.

1994 weapons ban did not go far enough in addressing the loopholes that rendered it ineffective. Similar bans in other countries such as Australia have proven to be more effective.

Eh, not all buybacks are created equal. Some counties have done the gift cards, others have gave ticket giveaways to sporting events and others have given cash. What hasn't been done is a nationwide buyback which would produce a budget for much larger buybacks that theoretically would offer greater incentives to people.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't have deterrents. If the punishment for being in possession of an illegal firearm was a minimum 10 years, then you would have fewer unregistered guns, or you would have more offenders in prison. I'm not advocating more people being locked up so either register it or turn it in for cash.

Well yeah. That's why you'd have to create one by federal law. It would function the same as a DMV issuing out licenses and registrations to qualified parties. The government certainly can create one.

www.cbsnews.com

Sorry, Mandatory Gun Registration Is Constitutional

Second Amendment Advocates Don't Like It, But It May Be Permissible; A Lawsuit Against Washington, D.C. Could Decide The Question
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

Now we don't have the political will to do any of this due to 50 plus years of NRA lobbying. But it's very much possible.
Click to expand...

Aye man. Like you said, you listed ways to eventually reduce gun violence and keep firearms out of the wrong hands and hey, I see what you’re saying.

but none of those things are going to happen because this is America. The monkey is already out of the barrel. We ain’t any of those other countries. Are the things you mention possible? Sure. Is it possible that one day we may discover other intelligent life in some galaxy far far away? Sure.
 
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Blue_London said:
He will need therapy for life because he won't be viewed as a child ever again.
Click to expand...
Ehh you don’t know that he NEEDS therapy for life

either way that kid should get reprimanded somehow

there Can’t be no repercussions for him since he gets to skate because he’s young
 
Mr.LV said:
It’s bad enough teachers get small salaries and now they have to worry about getting shot by 6 year olds smh
Click to expand...

I mean... they don't. This kind of shit is extraordinarily rare. One or two occurrences don't create a norm where the teachers gotta wear body armor.
 
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Chicity said:
You give him the bare minimum for the next 12yrs

Bleak bdays. No Xmas. Year round schools with very short breaks every few months🤷🏿‍♂️
Click to expand...
Damn…works for me but I’d maybe send him away to a boarding school or something at some point

i like your idea too

something gotta happen though
 
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