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Thor said:
But folks care about the soldiers, anthem and flag even though the folks that flew that Nazi flag killed thousands of soldiers with the America flag on their uniform



Make it make sense
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They're white supremacists. They really don't care about flags songs or even country. They only care about race

All that country first shit went right out of the window for McGregor vs mayweather
 
Sion said:
Will never happen and no they dont. In a perfect world all companies are financially sound and everyone has no debt. The nature of some businesses dont allow for it. Some businesses are more capital intensive than others and government doesn't want to be in the business of regulating how a business runs, they only want to intervene when absolutely necessary. Like check this, General Electric has hundreds of billions in debt and that's because they have a lot of subsidiaries and different businesses they also own a financing department (GE Capital). It is very very tough to maintain double the amount of assets to debt because A. it's hard to steer a big company like that, B. The operating costs are very high and C. Financial companies that take in loans have to be marked on their books as a liability (even tho banks have a trillion dollars in assets, those loans arent their money so they also owe a trillion dollars as well). Car manufacturers, airlines, energy companies, mining companies, etc. Any capital intensive industry likely can't keep up with that. It's not as easy as saying "well fix your profits and liquidity". Lastly noooo one can predict when a major pandemic is going to come to threaten American business.

Oil and gas companies would also be shit out of luck since they cant control the price of oil, are already hugely capital intensive and many are (or going to) report major losses based on where oil prices are because they themselves can't restructure fast enough to accommodate oil prices.

This is what makes my role as a financial advisor more challenging, I'm always looking for companies whose financial standing is strong and in good shape coupled with good management. Companies like that are few and far in between - let alone selling at a fair price.
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I understand everything you’re saying being an accountant for 3 Fortune 500 companies, at least I know for sure 1 was and the other 2 were close if not. The main point you got right is that they are managed poorly. Capital levels do not have to be supported by debt, at least the level of debt to where you have to layoff people a month into a pandemic. They could spend cash if they wanted to, but choose not to. They use the cash to pay themselves and shareholders. That’s being a good steward to executives and shareholders, but not to the company and it’s everyday workers.

Not sure why you equate having subsidiaries with debt. Enlighten me please because each subsidiary is just another company under the parent. They can also be managed better.

Oil and gas companies reported record profits for years and what did they do? Pay executives and shareholders. Yes they invested back into the business, but probably with more debt secured by their assets because they had increased so much.

And on top of all of that, none of those companies pay taxes.

So when you tell me a company that records wild profits on the backs of their employees lays off said employees during a pandemic then asks for a bailout using tax money they didn’t contribute to, I have a problem with that.

We’re expected to be fiscally responsible and shore up money in case of a pandemic that we can’t predict either but they’re supposed to operate as if there’s no uncontrollable risk?

Fuck that! Force them to shore up funds to cover every employee for at least 6 months or they don’t get those employee’s money when the shit hits the fan.
 
Sion said:
For the millionth time, corporations aren't getting free money. The funds are to help stop them from cutting jobs. The money given has to be paid back. It's also businesses that have a massive workforce or have the capability to pay back the money. The funds aren't being given to them for free to piss away. Most corporations aren't well capitalized or managed and have billions (and in the case of banks trillions) in debt. If you're operating a billion dollar business, your costs are gonna also be scaled to reflect that. There is no publicly traded company in the United States that doesn't have debt. Yes you'd think just because it's a "corporation" they would have reserves but it's often not the case. Only financial institutions are required to have reserves for loan losses, the rest you better hope are well managed or capitalized.

98% of corporations have billions on billions in debt and can't afford to pay out of pocket the salaries if people aren't buying their products or services. It's not just salaries, it's also massive pensions and other things. It's easier to cut jobs especially if you have 50000+ employees and pay them an average of 50k a year that's $2.5 billion a year. Banks are the few corporations that actually HAVE to have a reserve for losses and outside of that many corporations dont have it like that. If my operating cost is $15 billion a year and I go from $20 billion a year to $200 million a year later it'll take maybe a year or two for most companies to deplete cash or lines of credit trying to stay solvent.

If you let them go under, the unemployment rate is gonna skyrocket and that's a bigger issue because it slows down the economy tremendously and would destroy more lives in the United States. It would also send you into recession, this is why Trump and Republicans want to "open" the U.S. so businesses can resume because the truth is, the feds don't have enough to keep shit afloat and if it goes on longer they will have to slash interest rates again most likely to negative which would be great for the average person and companies with debt but also bad for government and countries who own debt because theoretically if rates go negative they have to pay you to keep the debt and the U.S. cant afford that.
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Your logic has a flaw in it. Why are corporations in debt?

Because of Start up costs, Operating costs, Capital Expenditures.

Is payroll not on Operating cost?
Is human capital not an Asset?

A corporation can go into debt to purchase a building, but paying for their employees in a crisis is unthinkable?

If companies are so strapped for cash, why did they spend a record $1 Trillion last year in stock buy backs?

They’re in debt right? They have to be fiscally responsible. Shouldn’t they be paying that down, putting away cash, or investing in their business?

I know this is crazy - but they could even invest in the employees that generated all of that profit and raise their wages or provide more benefits

*GASP*

But instead, why did they blow so much on artificially inflating their stock price and putting money into their pockets?

Unsolved Mysteries ...

Also - Corporations just received a $4.5 Trillion bailout ...
So why are we still experiencing historic unemployment of 20 million people in a mere few weeks?

What the hell was the bailout for?

Are we really witnessing the incredible benevolence of US Corporations play out on a national stage ... or is it more representative of massive inequality and the corporate favoritism of our political system?

Can we be honest about this or nah?
 
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TheNightKing said:
I understand everything you’re saying being an accountant for 3 Fortune 500 companies, at least I know for sure 1 was and the other 2 were close if not. The main point you got right is that they are managed poorly. Capital levels do not have to be supported by debt, at least the level of debt to where you have to layoff people a month into a pandemic. They could spend cash if they wanted to, but choose not to. They use the cash to pay themselves and shareholders. That’s being a good steward to executives and shareholders, but not to the company and it’s everyday workers.

Not sure why you equate having subsidiaries with debt. Enlighten me please because each subsidiary is just another company under the parent. They can also be managed better.

Oil and gas companies reported record profits for years and what did they do? Pay executives and shareholders. Yes they invested back into the business, but probably with more debt secured by their assets because they had increased so much.

And on top of all of that, none of those companies pay taxes.

So when you tell me a company that records wild profits on the backs of their employees lays off said employees during a pandemic then asks for a bailout using tax money they didn’t contribute to, I have a problem with that.

We’re expected to be fiscally responsible and shore up money in case of a pandemic that we can’t predict either but they’re supposed to operate as if there’s no uncontrollable risk?

Fuck that! Force them to shore up funds to cover every employee for at least 6 months or they don’t get those employee’s money when the shit hits the fan.
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Big Facts
 
Sion said:
Some corporations have mentioned they will not layoff any employees due to COVID-19. Some corporations have the financial means to do that, most do not. Again they're not being given free money and not every company is getting it. The feds are trying to prevent more layoffs. Most companies unfortunately aren't well managed and that's not intentional, hell yeah most wish they were because they'd be more profitable. Subsidiaries depend on the parent company for support. Some industries are tougher than others, airlines, energy, automobile, logistics, anything capital intensive. As for oil and gas, it is one of the hardest industries and the most capital intensive. Right now I would tell people NOT to invest there only people making money are the supermajors your ExxonMobil and Chevron (average employee makes 104k a year across 71000 employees which is $7.4 billion a year not including other expenses to run the business) and even their stock price is on the decline. Prior to last 2 years those same names also recorded record losses just off the strength of oil falling and demand slowing down.

As for corporations paying no tax ? Some pay low taxes but name me any company on the S&P 500 or Dow Jones and I will tell you how much they paid and the percentage of their income it was.

At the same time the alternative is the corporations should fail and then everyone who isnt self employed gets laid off and the unemployment rate rises. That's what Bernie Sanders would do. It's easier to give them a loan to minimize the amount of people being laid off and in the next 2 years when this goes away, they can hire again in droves and being down unemployment again. It's not a popular choice but it's what has to be done. If more unemployment continues this will surpass the great Depression. Now if businesses open up at the end of April and a bailout isn't needed and Trump is wrong and the disease spreads, I dont think the families of the people impacted negatively will be too happy about that. So it's a catch 22. I'm not giving corporations the benefit of the doubt other than making money and giving people jobs. I dont think the government is either.


Lastly I understand the frustration because those same people I have to advise on what they should do next. Many of which were spending more than their means or had prior debts from school, unrelated health issues among other things. Some of us are lucky we still even have jobs or money for a rainy day and that is still not guaranteed because it's not just your livelihood at risk it's also your health. Corporations aren't shining stars when it comes to corporate social responsibility and not a group I'm holding my breath for because it's a business. Nobody in those companies is a specialized medical scientist who can pinpoint that a health related issue and not a market one that will cause the global economy to halt and business to shut down completely. People saw the warnings but who knew this would be bigger than previous health scares in history.
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I think you’re just believing what those companies tell you and the government. They could operate better, but they don’t because they aren’t made to. Then as soon as a crisis hits, they holler about free money, which is contrary to one of your points actually. They are absolutely being given this money for free. If they keep their workforce the loans are forgiven! So we are paying them to keep paying us!

Anyway, they see a crisis as an opportunity for free money. And they pitch this lie that if they don’t get the money they’ll be broke and lay-off thousands of people. Which may be true for some, but most not so much. If they can borrow to buy equipment, they can borrow to pay employees during a crisis and pay it back with interest, just like they do all of their other operating assets.

It’s time employees are seen as an asset and not an operating expense. Then maybe they wouldn’t be so quick to dump us at the first sign of trouble. You don’t see them selling off their machinery, right?

I know people are more easily replaceable than machines, but that’s why we’d have to force them to keep 6 months of payroll expenses in cash in order to get any kind of bailout. Hell, say 3. Then the government would step in for any months after that 3 with a bailout. If they choose to not comply, good luck to you and your highly paid execs and shareholders. Hope you got it!
 
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Sion said:
Some corporations have mentioned they will not layoff any employees due to COVID-19. Some corporations have the financial means to do that, most do not. Again they're not being given free money and not every company is getting it. The feds are trying to prevent more layoffs. Most companies unfortunately aren't well managed and that's not intentional, hell yeah most wish they were because they'd be more profitable. Subsidiaries depend on the parent company for support. Some industries are tougher than others, airlines, energy, automobile, logistics, anything capital intensive. As for oil and gas, it is one of the hardest industries and the most capital intensive. Right now I would tell people NOT to invest there only people making money are the supermajors your ExxonMobil and Chevron (average employee makes 104k a year across 71000 employees which is $7.4 billion a year not including other expenses to run the business) and even their stock price is on the decline. Prior to last 2 years those same names also recorded record losses just off the strength of oil falling and demand slowing down.

As for corporations paying no tax ? Some pay low taxes but name me any company on the S&P 500 or Dow Jones and I will tell you how much they paid and the percentage of their income it was.

At the same time the alternative is the corporations should fail and then everyone who isnt self employed gets laid off and the unemployment rate rises. That's what Bernie Sanders would do. It's easier to give them a loan to minimize the amount of people being laid off and in the next 2 years when this goes away, they can hire again in droves and being down unemployment again. It's not a popular choice but it's what has to be done. If more unemployment continues this will surpass the great Depression. Now if businesses open up at the end of April and a bailout isn't needed and Trump is wrong and the disease spreads, I dont think the families of the people impacted negatively will be too happy about that. So it's a catch 22. I'm not giving corporations the benefit of the doubt other than making money and giving people jobs. I dont think the government is either.


Lastly I understand the frustration because those same people I have to advise on what they should do next. Many of which were spending more than their means or had prior debts from school, unrelated health issues among other things. Some of us are lucky we still even have jobs or money for a rainy day and that is still not guaranteed because it's not just your livelihood at risk it's also your health. Corporations aren't shining stars when it comes to corporate social responsibility and not a group I'm holding my breath for because it's a business. Nobody in those companies is a specialized medical scientist who can pinpoint that a health related issue and not a market one that will cause the global economy to halt and business to shut down completely. People saw the warnings but who knew this would be bigger than previous health scares in history.
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You said Chevron has 7.4B/year in payroll costs, but they had gross profit of $62B, $67B, and $54B for the last 3 years! They couldn’t have saved about $3B of that to cover their employees through a crisis? And they are essential anyway so not like they having to shutdown completely. They still making some money.
 
TheNightKing said:
You said Chevron has 7.4B/year in payroll costs, but they had gross profit of $62B, $67B, and $54B for the last 3 years! They couldn’t have saved about $3B of that to cover their employees through a crisis? And they are essential anyway so not like they having to shutdown completely. They still making some money.
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I'm following both sides ya discussion, but to add he also mentioned after that payroll expense there were other expenses to pay for which may with the 7.4B payroll go pass the total profits
 
Strip it all away... Corporations are not mythical, all powerful entities that we are beholden to.

Why do we ALLOW them (and the select few people that benefit from them) to simply privatize all of their gains and socialize all of their losses?

Why?

What is the purpose of a corporation in the first place?

Consider the following

- A corporation literally cannot exist or make ANY money without the government, period.

Hell - fiat currency (money) cannot even exist without the government


- The government exists to represent the collective interests of the people

Do you think the people have a vested interest in the continuing habitability of our planet?

Do you think the people have a vested interest in a living wage that they can survive off of?

Do you think the people have a vested interest in reasonable job security during a health and financial crisis?

Do you think the people have a vested interest in NOT having to spend their 70s working 40 hours a week to survive?

The current state of affairs illustrates that there is a massive break down in the appropriate roles of the government AND of the corporation.

Plain and simple.
 
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I think the biggest hindrance to everything @Peace_79 is talking about is the inherent greed of people... so long as that is around it will always play the obstacle to this idea of dropping capitalism at least here in America
 
Focal Point said:
I'm following both sides ya discussion, but to add he also mentioned after that payroll expense there were other expenses to pay for which may with the 7.4B payroll go pass the total profits
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That is true, which is why I only mentioned Gross Profit. On the income statement, Gross Profit does not include other income and expenses not related to production. It’s sales, direct materials, direct labor, and overhead.

If they managed those below the line expenses better, which include debt payments, selling and marketing expenses, administrative expenses, etc., it’s clear they have enough money to cover the payroll of their essential production personnel.

And even given those other expenses to arrive at net income, they still made enough over the last 12 years to save enough cash to pay employees in an economic crisis.

E56BD442-E642-4BE0-8846-9315B4C2D73E.jpeg
 
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Focal Point said:
I think the biggest hindrance to everything @Peace_79 is talking about is the inherent greed of people... so long as that is around it will always play the obstacle to this idea of dropping capitalism at least here in America
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Yeah and that will always exist.

But our economic system and political priorities can mitigate it and shape better outcomes.

The free market and our politics are not permanent structures or laws of nature.

Through hundreds of collective decisions, we choose what they are.

We, unfortunately, chose in the Democratic Primary. And we will choose again in November...
 
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