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Sion said:
Also one thing I want to also point out is that government bailouts aren't new. They've been occurring since the founding of the United States.

1791, the Great Depression, 1907-08 federal reserve crisis, the 1970s railroad crisis and economic collapse of 1973-74, the 1980s savings and loan crisis, 2001 airline industry bailout (9/11), and that's just off the top of my head, there are many more examples throughout the decades. It's not even just countries it's also states as well. Same thing with all of those examples it was either to slow down unemployment and stop an economic crash or something more specific. Just an observation.
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Every country does bailouts and stimulus packages, but the US really creates a culture where companies are not held responsible for anything once they grow to a certain size.

Companies get huge, make record profits. Then on record years, the govt allows them a ton of work arounds on not paying taxes, then they never reinvest those profits, instead they give execs, the ceo, and board members crazy huge bonuses, and use the fact that they made crazy profits to get loans and grow their business that way, which means they always operate in the negative.

And then when there is a crash, they get bailed out, there almost no oversight at all on what they use the money on, and instead of using the bailout money to pay their workers, they buy back their own stock for cheap, make 10-15% on the billions they got from the govt, then pay it back at almost no interest.

In theory, if a company did all the above, they should be allowed to fail so a better run company can take its place. And once companies know that the govt wont bail them out, gaurantee they start running better and have a ton of money tucked away as a contigency plan for the next crash instead of giving millions in bonuses in a bad year.
 
AZTG said:
Every country does bailouts and stimulus packages, but the US really creates a culture where companies are not held responsible for anything once they grow to a certain size.

Companies get huge, make record profits. Then on record years, the govt allows them a ton of work arounds on not paying taxes, then they never reinvest those profits, instead they give execs, the ceo, and board members crazy huge bonuses, and use the fact that they made crazy profits to get loans and grow their business that way, which means they always operate in the negative.

And then when there is a crash, they get bailed out, there almost no oversight at all on what they use the money on, and instead of using the bailout money to pay their workers, they buy back their own stock for cheap, make 10-15% on the billions they got from the govt, then pay it back at almost no interest.

In theory, if a company did all the above, they should be allowed to fail so a better run company can take its place. And once companies know that the govt wont bail them out, gaurantee they start running better and have a ton of money tucked away as a contigency plan for the next crash instead of giving millions in bonuses in a bad year.
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FACTS

And before anyone mentions “what about the employees??”

There are a myriad of strategies the government can use to sustain them and make them whole as a bridge to gainful employment.
 
Sion said:
I used to have clients who were contractors and the shit they would get away with on their taxes was just incredible. I'm not mad at it at all. I respect it.

Way I see it tho look what happens when the shoe is on the other foot.... !!
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It's sooooo easy fam but like I said I'm not good with administration and findin' and regularly checkin' in with an account is looooong
 
Sion said:
You just need to get you a good accountant and you're good man. Why leave money on the table when you don't have to ? Something to think about !
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Lol this why my boys tell me off fam I'm a lazy bum.

To be fair on myself tho' I was gonna do for my next job but corona came along.
 
Sion said:
To play Devil's Advocate how do you punish a Corporation tho ?

In the last paragraph is that not what happens tho ? What happened to the thousands of companies that went to zero during the savings and loans crisis or what about all the dot com companies who came out during the dot com boom and went to zero after 9/11 ? What about the smaller and regional banks that went under because they werent too big to fail which cost Americans their homes and livelihoods simply because they chose a different lender to get a mortgage vs the major 6-20 banks who got bailed out ?

So after you bail them out, they pay it back with interest, hire people afterwards and then it's over until shit goes south 10 years later. But what would you do to punish them ?
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You dont punish any of them. Not bailing them out is the punishment.

If the US taxed businesses 20%, i mean actually taxed them, and did the same for the rich, they can have a very comprehensive unemployment benefit program that not only pays for people losing their jobs for 2 years, but also gives them the option to go to school to further their skills and even a job placement program.

We let corps and the rich get away with so much taxes that just taxing them at a normal clip can transform america.

So yea, you dont punish corps, you just let them fold and in due time another company fills the void. Funny enough, thats the first and most important tenant of capatilism. Adam Smith will lose his mind if he knew companies were getting bailed out. The whole point is to let the market do what it does, and if you cant make it through the crash, fuck it. The company that replaces you will be better cause they won the competition.

The only time you punish corporations is if their predatory tacticts lead to the crash in the first place. Like what happened in 08 was because banks gave loans and mortgages to people who had no business owning homes. The amount of bad debt eventually caused the economy to crash. Thats why all the banks got fined and some are still paying those fines. You take billions from them and use that to bail out small businesses that are suffering from the crash caused by the big banks.

Also, im not saying you can never bail out corps. But when you do, there has to be more oversight on what they can and cant do with the money. The last few bailouts went to companies repurchasing their stocks on loans with low to no interest. Thats the kind of shit that needs to be regulated.
 
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We really have to sit back and understand how much surplus the US economy would have if everyone actually paid their taxes. The huge majority of the 10,000 biggest companies in the world are in america, how are we in debt?

Its not a coincidence that the only times America didnt have a defecit is when they taxed corps and businesses.

There is no logical reason that a company like apple can have 300 to 500 billion in cash sustaining the economy of ireland and escape paying taxes on it.

70 of the biggest companies in the US had 2 trillion untaxed money in cash overseas 10 years ago. Cant imagine what its at now.

The US can easily raise the minimum wage, pay people a liveable wage, give universal health care, fix our infastructure, and expand unemployment insurance for when companies collapse just by taxing corps and people a fair amount.
 
Sion said:
What about the people who would end up unemployed ? What about industries that would be wiped out ? How long would we have to wait for a new company to emerge ?

As for small businesses check this out

Collins Introduces $300 Billion Small Business Bailout

U.S. Sen. Susan Collins of Maine is sponsoring legislation would provide loans to help keep small businesses hurt by the coronavirus pandemic up and…
www.mainepublic.org www.mainepublic.org
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Thats a bill that didnt get passed yet, so im not gonma focus on that.

About the stimulus that passed though, all the money that was set aside for small businesses dried up in a week and there are tons of claims already that the businesses most in need didnt get it. Cause again, no oversight.

And about your other questions. Industries dry up everyday. Whole manufacturing and service industry got sent overseas, we ok. And bout the umemployment, like I said, if companies pay tax like they supposed too we can easily expand unemployment services.
 
Peace_79 said:
“Even with the political laws...”

Our Political laws are weak as shit, fam.

You misunderstand. Corruption has not happened in spite of them, it has happened BECAUSE of them and the people who designed them.

Our laws can be redesigned. Our political system can be tweaked.

Of course we won’t live in a Utopia - but there is a shit ton of distance on the spectrum between what we have now and a utopia. Your argument basically amounts to “nothing can be done and our level of fucked up cannot be changed at all .... because people are bad”

It’s just categorically false - when you look at the systematic atrocities committed throughout human history and how they have ceased or been drastically mitigated with organized legislation against them.


You are in essence stripping all power from the government and political apparatus to effect any positive change, whatsoever.

It is overly reductive and simply a-historical.
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No I did not say things can't change, peep my responses to Cellar... what I'm pointing out is that it is not so easy to simply get Bernie in the presidency and suddenly see a change with all his good intentions. The Senate isn't going to suddenly start passing his shit. My argument is that change has gotta be 1. fundamental (with ourselves, home, neighborhood, community, local politics, courts, etc), and 2. the Senate by putting ppl in place for progress for starters
 
Focal Point said:
No I did not say things can't change, peep my responses to Cellar... what I'm pointing out is that it is not so easy to simply get Bernie in the presidency and suddenly see a change with all his good intentions. The Senate isn't going to suddenly start passing his shit. My argument is that change has gotta be 1. fundamental (with ourselves, home, neighborhood, community, local politics, courts, etc), and 2. the Senate by putting ppl in place for progress for starters
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Ok cool. Thank you for clarifying.

I agree with this.

Although I think Progressive President could help flip the Senate by exercising their power and by forcefully pointing out and articulating how certain members of Congress are standing against the will of the people.

In that sense, a big part of the problem is the tyranny of decorum. Progressives don’t want to offend their beloved colleagues.

But in doing so, they are fucking over their constituents.

In terms of grassroots education, that is always the challenge. And it starts with unplugging people (especially boomers) from cable news and helping them cut through the propaganda. @AZTG Does have a point when he says, more progressive change will come in time - if only because of the Demographics. People under 40 are extremely progressive in ideology.

Problem is for many issues we can’t afford to wait that long.
 
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Focal Point said:
No I did not say things can't change, peep my responses to Cellar... what I'm pointing out is that it is not so easy to simply get Bernie in the presidency and suddenly see a change with all his good intentions. The Senate isn't going to suddenly start passing his shit. My argument is that change has gotta be 1. fundamental (with ourselves, home, neighborhood, community, local politics, courts, etc), and 2. the Senate by putting ppl in place for progress for starters
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I don't get why people say stuff like 'Bernie gone get in then suddenly things gon change'. Do you actually think I think that?

Really though, all of us in the West are just gonna have to wait for people over 45 or so to die. They've been too heavily propagandised, they can't discuss politics without thinkin' Stalin or communist Russia.

Like Peace say, u40s vote progressive so I don't think there needs to be much change there.
 
CeLLar-DooR said:
I don't get why people say stuff like 'Bernie gone get in then suddenly things gon change'. Do you actually think I think that?

Really though, all of us in the West are just gonna have to wait for people over 45 or so to die. They've been too heavily propagandised, they can't discuss politics without thinkin' Stalin or communist Russia.

Like Peace say, u40s vote progressive so I don't think there needs to be much change there.
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I'm not saying you think that, I'm saying a lot of his supporters the way those videos show em seem to got it in their head that is what is going to happen.

All you and I are doing are discussing possibilities and the hang ups, and more my end why humans overall will disappoint more often then not.
I still wholeheartedly believe a change is possible it just has to happen everywhere maybe small to big or perhaps it can just happened in an explosion
 

Oil Plunges Below Zero for First Time in Unprecedented Wipeout
By
Catherine Ngai
,
Olivia Raimonde
, and
Alex Longley
April 19, 2020, 6:28 PM EDTUpdated on April 20, 2020, 2:59 PM EDT
  • U.S. crude trades at lowest level in data going back to 1946
  • Crude in U.S. trades more than $40 below zero at lowest level

(Bloomberg) -- Of all the wild, unprecedented swings in financial markets since the coronavirus pandemic broke out, none has been more jaw-dropping than Monday’s collapse in a key segment of U.S. oil trading.

The price on the futures contract for West Texas crude that is due to expire Tuesday fell into negative territory -- minus $37.63 a barrel. That’s right, sellers were actually paying buyers to take the stuff off their hands. The reason: with the pandemic bringing the economy to a standstill, there is so much unused oil sloshing around that American energy companies have run out of room to store it. And if there’s no place to put the oil, no one wants a crude contract that is about to come due.


Underscoring just how acute the concern over the lack of storage is, the price on the futures contract due a month later settled at $20.43 per barrel. That gap between the two contracts is by far the biggest ever.

“The May crude oil contract is going out not with a whimper, but a primal scream,” said Daniel Yergin, a Pulitzer Prize-winning oil historian and vice chairman of IHS Markit Ltd.
 
Focal Point said:
People can't go nowhere so the price of gasoline drops resulting in the need for oil or the demand to go low and its in a high supply
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yeah, I get that, but what does it mean for our economy? I see people freaking out and others not so much. What’s the repercussions of this? How badly does it affect me, you, or whomever.
 
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