HipHop Hasn't Done Anything Good For Black People

[JiggaThaNinja]

My apologies to all who responded earlier... I just wanted to voice my opinion...

I agree with Dr. Umar based on his own principles. IMO Dr. Umar sought to understand what 5 critical institutions has Hip-Hop (at large) has built. Those institutions include - Hospitals, Banks, Grocery Stores, Manufacturing, and Schools.

When the guy named Revolt he lost.
When he said Drug Dealers were essential - he lost twice.
When he finally took the bait and barked back at Dr. Umar with the Fashion statement.... STRIKE THREE YOU ARE.... OUT.

The answer to Dr. Umar's questions - Nothing has been built by Hip Hop Institutions that we as a community can draw any attributable equity. I cannot visit Diddy owned Revolt and ask for a loan. Jay-Z employs individuals, but does not send out a monthly residual check to everyone AA just for being AA. Fashion is a way of life, but as we remain cognitive of our current Fashion Icons, because we love our fabrics, we can quickly be reminded that "we don't belong".

E.G. I love Pharrell, he probably would love to see me in his LV line, but my money may not be good enough to buy a permanent seat at the table - thus preventing a way for me to improve the circumstances of my community at large.

 

[Gray Matter]

No. Now stop asking rhetorical questions and make a coherent argument.

I think he's trying to make the point that the same thing can affect people differently. Some people can smoke crack and remain functional. Some others would become basket cases. Similarly, kids can still excel at a very high level academically despite being immersed in hip hop. Others might struggle.

 

[loud-ninja]

I’m not talking about “rap music”. I’m talking about “Hip hop culture” which not only includes rap music but also the cultural norms and values that come with it.

I mentioned White people because you cited lack of funding for Black schools as the primary reason as to why Black schools underperform. My point was, if that’s the case why do middle class Black students in majority Black middle class areas underperform white people of the same socioeconomic status?

My answer is different cultural values. What’s yours?

Your whole argument is filled with Fallacies. That study was done at one school from what it seems. Dog, watch the video your man's posted. The finger is pointed at the school, students and the guy also blames the parents.

Some of the things that were suggested :

Teachers need to stop being scared of the inner city kids (Cleveland).

White kids need to stop being scared of the black students

Parents of the black students need to encourage them to do their home work.

Black students need not be scared to take ap classes.

The teachers need to encourage black students more.

Nothing about hip hop culture.

You are speaking from opinion and not fact. The "proof" you posted but didn't read goes against what you are saying.

 

[loud-ninja]

It's not just one school, and it's not just schools in one city. Shaker Heights schools just happen to be among the most well-known. Why would you think it's just one school? Obviously, we are making a more general point.

And just because the students themselves didn't point the finger at hip hop that means that hip hop couldn't possibly play a role? You can't be serious.

Based off the evidence you provided, it is based off of one school. I'm not saying it is not happening at other places. But when someone uses key words like "most" or "all", I'm gonna need to see proof. I enjoy research, so I'm gonna do it.

School systems are different every where. What applies at that school is not gonna be the same at all schools.

Is hip hop the major reason or a small reason? I would say parent/s not involved in their kids education is a bigger. Teachers not encouraging black students like they do white students is a bigger issue.

Also, yall brought that Ohio school up and claimed it was "hip hop culture" as a reason. When that was disputed by your own proof, now the goal post is being moved.

 

[BlackRain]

Under funded schools is definitely not the fault of hip hop. But if I show you Black schools that underperform white schools with the same amount of resources, you can’t blame “funding”.

What else does the culture of hip hop push besides “entrepreneur mindset”?

I also named more things than funding that can affect how a child performs in school. How about you address the entirety of what I'm saying before asking a question. And you'd also have to somehow prove a premise that not only do the majority of the kids in that school listen to rap music and then ...but the listen to the rap deemed as overly negative and connected it to their ability to learn.

 

[BlackRain]

Also, why do Carribean and African immigrants to America attend the same underfunded schools as Black Americans and consistently outperform the Black Americans?

Well part of that would be attributed to the other factors in my post you ignored

 

[Gray Matter]

Based off the evidence you provided, it is based off of one school. I'm not saying it is not happening at other places. But when someone uses key words like "most" or "all", I'm gonna need to see proof. I enjoy research, so I'm gonna do it.

School systems are different every where. What applies at that school is not gonna be the same at all schools.

Is hip hop the major reason or a small reason? I would say parent/s not involved in their kids education is a bigger. Teachers not encouraging black students like they do white students is a bigger issue.

Also, yall brought that Ohio school up and claimed it was "hip hop culture" as a reason. When that was disputed by your own proof, now the goal post is being moved.

The video was never meant to be any proof. lol. Are you serious? It was meant merely to show that there was a well-known controversy surrounding the underperformance of the black students there.

How is the goal post being moved?

 

[Stiff]

Your whole argument is filled with Fallacies. That study was done at one school from what it seems. Dog, watch the video your man's posted. The finger is pointed at the school, students and the guy also blames the parents.

Some of the things that were suggested :

Teachers need to stop being scared of the inner city kids (Cleveland).

White kids need to stop being scared of the black students

Parents of the black students need to encourage them to do their home work.

Black students need not be scared to take ap classes.

The teachers need to encourage black students more.

Nothing about hip hop culture.

You are speaking from opinion and not fact. The "proof" you posted but didn't read goes against what you are saying.

First, I read the book; stop saying I didn’t lol.

Spoiler: Proof

Second, I haven’t watched the video posted yet but I can assure you the book goes into more detail than a 6 min video can. He interviews hundreds of students and a large part of it is academic disengagement inspired by a culture that doesn’t hold academic institutions in high regard.

This book covers one school in Ohio-fair point. But I can assure you the trend can be observed across the country. If you want me to pull census data to make my case I can (even though I have a feeling y’all will just disregard it).

The fact is this: In general, Black middle class students in middle class Black areas don’t perform as well as white middle class students in middle class white areas.

I don’t KNOW why that is but yes my OPINION is that it’s because the majority of Black young people subscribe to a culture (Hip-Hop) that does not value academic achievement. This is in contrast to a group like Asians, where you could ask 100 of them and find 0 of them trying to make it to the NBA, or working on a mixtape.

 

[Stiff]

Well part of that would be attributed to the other factors in my post you ignored

I ain’t mean to ignore your post bro can you reiterate for me

 

[Stiff]

I never heard of a functional crack head. Cocaine head, sure. But not crack head. They usually don't keep their jobs

Okay cool replace crack with cocaine…Point still stands lol.

To say “if cocaine is so bad then explain all the people that were able to do well on cocaine” is an absurd defense of cocaine.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

First, I read the book; stop saying I didn’t lol.

Spoiler: Proof

View attachment 1365790
View attachment 1365791

Second, I haven’t watched the video posted yet but I can assure you the book goes into more detail than a 6 min video can. He interviews hundreds of students and a large part of it is academic disengagement inspired by a culture that doesn’t hold academic institutions in high regard.

This book covers one school in Ohio-fair point. But I can assure you the trend can be observed across the country. If you want me to pull census data to make my case I can (even though I have a feeling y’all will just disregard it).

The fact is this: In general, Black middle class students in middle class Black areas don’t perform as well as white middle class students in middle class white areas.

I don’t KNOW why that is but yes my OPINION is that it’s because the majority of Black young people subscribe to a culture (Hip-Hop) that does not value academic achievement. This is in contrast to a group like Asians, where you could ask 100 of them and find 0 of them trying to make it to the NBA, or working on a mixtape.

Absolutely nothing on that page says jack shit about rap or hip hp culture.

You're using that book to make some correlation to rap/hip hop to fuel YOUR narrative

 

[Stiff]

Absolutely nothing on that page says jack shit about rap or hip hp culture.

You're using that book to make some correlation to rap/hip hop to fuel YOUR narrative

Me posting the page was to debunk the claim that I didn’t read the book as well as an earlier claim that the primary reason Black students underperform relative to other groups was less funding of schools.

Don’t be dense just to win an argument.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

Me posting the page was to debunk the claim that I didn’t read the book as well as an earlier claim that the primary reason Black students underperform relative to other groups was less funding of schools.

Don’t be dense just to win an argument.

Second, I haven’t watched the video posted yet but I can assure you the book goes into more detail than a 6 min video can. He interviews hundreds of students and a large part of it is academic disengagement inspired by a culture that doesn’t hold academic institutions in high regard.

This book covers one school in Ohio-fair point. But I can assure you the trend can be observed across the country. If you want me to pull census data to make my case I can (even though I have a feeling y’all will just disregard it).

The fact is this: In general, Black middle class students in middle class Black areas don’t perform as well as white middle class students in middle class white areas.

I don’t KNOW why that is but yes my OPINION is that it’s because the majority of Black young people subscribe to a culture (Hip-Hop) that does not value academic achievement. This is in contrast to a group like Asians, where you could ask 100 of them and find 0 of them trying to make it to the NBA, or working on a mixtape.

I'm definitely not the one being dense

Try again

 

[Stiff]

I'm definitely not the one being dense

Try again

Yes, the book makes MULTIPLE claims. The section I highlighted references ONE of the claims that have led me to reach the OPINION that I’ve formed.

That section I highlighted doesn’t reference culture. Other sections in the book do. I didn’t go back through the book to find those references because they weren’t central to the point I was trying to make which was: the primary reason for the underperformance of Black students can’t be lack of funding because Black students underperform even when the funding is comparable or when they are of the same socioeconomic status as other groups.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

Yes, the book makes MULTIPLE claims. The section I highlighted references ONE of the claims that have led me to reach the OPINION that I’ve formed.

That section I highlighted doesn’t reference culture. Other sections in the book do. I didn’t go back through the book to find those references because they weren’t central to the point I was trying to make which was: the primary reason for the underperformance of Black students can’t be lack of funding because Black students underperform even when the funding is comparable or when they are of the same socioeconomic status as other groups.

So please, show us in that book that references hip-hop culture and it's effect on black people.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

It's taken a lot of black people out of poverty. I'm not just talking about the rappers. You have to consider the DJs, the execs, marketing, radio personnel even down to tangential things like fashion, bars/clubs, retail, etc... I wouldn't say uplifting thousands of black people is nothing. Impact on the community as a whole? That's harder to say, but it's music, how much are people expecting it to do for the community? Did anyone think that Hip Hip was going to raise black people as a whole above the poverty line? That would be a silly expectation.

 

[loud-ninja]

First, I read the book; stop saying I didn’t lol.

Spoiler: Proof

View attachment 1365790
View attachment 1365791

Second, I haven’t watched the video posted yet but I can assure you the book goes into more detail than a 6 min video can. He interviews hundreds of students and a large part of it is academic disengagement inspired by a culture that doesn’t hold academic institutions in high regard.

This book covers one school in Ohio-fair point. But I can assure you the trend can be observed across the country. If you want me to pull census data to make my case I can (even though I have a feeling y’all will just disregard it).

The fact is this: In general, Black middle class students in middle class Black areas don’t perform as well as white middle class students in middle class white areas.

I don’t KNOW why that is but yes my OPINION is that it’s because the majority of Black young people subscribe to a culture (Hip-Hop) that does not value academic achievement. This is in contrast to a group like Asians, where you could ask 100 of them and find 0 of them trying to make it to the NBA, or working on a mixtape.

Alright, my bad for saying you didn't read it.

My problem is you tried to say what I said is not true "myth" and then state what you said as fact. When I pushed back, now you change it to "my opinion ". We speaking facts. Dwayne and Freeman can back up most their claims, the opposing side can back up most their claims. I'm not gonna say all because their are many arguments happening in this thread and I don't remember who all said what. Yall can't prove what your saying as fact.

Also, the original argument from me was that under privileged schools are not gonna have the same turn out as privileged schools. You said that was a myth. I made no mention of white people. Just look at the drop out rates in certain high schools.

You said "you" don't know why blacks in middle class environments underperform compared to whites in the same environments. If you don't know after reading the book, why present it as evidence? The video comes from some topics in the book and gave many different reasons.

Please define what hip hop culture is? When that question is brought up, no one seems to have a clear definition

 

[TheNightKing]

It's taken a lot of black people out of poverty. I'm not just talking about the rappers. You have to consider the DJs, the execs, marketing, radio personnel even down to tangential things like fashion, bars/clubs, retail, etc... I wouldn't say uplifting thousands of black people is nothing. Impact on the community as a whole? That's harder to say, but it's music, how much are people expecting it to do for the community? Did anyone think that Hip Hip was going to raise black people as a whole above the poverty line? That would be a silly expectation.

And that’s been my point. The people complaining that hip hop hasn’t helped are the exact people who should be taking that responsibility on themselves. Umar is just a mouthpiece who does very little to uplift black people as a whole because he’s too divisive.

The position he and many like him take is you’re dumb, a shill, etc. if you don’t think exactly like them. And that division is counterproductive to their goals.

 

[loud-ninja]

The video was never meant to be any proof. lol. Are you serious? It was meant merely to show that there was a well-known controversy surrounding the underperformance of the black students there.

How is the goal post being moved?

Are YOU serious? You provided an example and video evidence that doesnt even back up your orginal claim.

This is what you said Verbatim:

"Hip hop has depressed black academic achievement, and it has done this mainly by making kids give less then their full effort into their education.

There would be more black doctors, engineers, scientists and businesspeople but for hip hop.

More black businesspeople, for example, could have lead to a black Elton Musk, or a black Bill Gates.

Do you know much good even one black multibillionaire like that can do?"

The video gave many reasons why that school is the way it is and none said "hip hop culture". Why are yall ignoring what they said? That is their experience. Yall are basically insinuating and making it sould like you are saying "naw, that ain't the main reason yall are behind. It's due to hip hop".

Why do you have so much faith in billionaires? We have black billionaires. Why haven't the kids been saved yet? A very small portion may have been but that is not enough. Starts with home and community .

 

[Stiff]

Alright, my bad for saying you didn't read it.

My problem is you tried to say what I said is not true "myth" and then state what you said as fact. When I pushed back, now you change it to "my opinion ". We speaking facts. Dwayne and Freeman can back up most their claims, the opposing side can back up most their claims. I'm not gonna say all because their are many arguments happening in this thread and I don't remember who all said what. Yall can't prove what your saying as fact.

Also, the original argument from me was that under privileged schools are not gonna have the same turn out as privileged schools. You said that was a myth. I made no mention of white people. Just look at the drop out rates in certain high schools.

You said "you" don't know why blacks in middle class environments underperform compared to whites in the same environments. If you don't know after reading the book, why present it as evidence? The video comes from some topics in the book and gave many different reasons.

Please define what hip hop culture is? When that question is brought up, no one seems to have a clear definition

Let me recap.

Your Claim: “The kids that give "less then their full effort into their Education " are usually the ones that come from terrible schools. Schools where they are understaffed , don't have money, teachers that dont give a fuck, gangs in school, lack of resources, etc. Entertainment and sports are a way out for most in those types of environments.”

My counter claim: That’s a myth
Fact to support my counter claim: Black students underperform relative to other groups regardless of socioeconomic status or school resources.
Evidence to support my counter claim: Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Story of Academic Disengagement (Ogbu,2003)
Money and School Performance: Lessons from the Kansas City Desegregation Experiment (Ciotti, 1998) <=Which I referenced in an earlier post

You and @BlackRain both made the assertion that the lower school performance among Black students can be mainly attributed to lower resources. I disagreed and provided evidence that showed instances of Black students under performing even with similar access to resources. Y’all have provided ZERO evidence to back up your claims.

It is true that it’s my OPINION that the difference in performance can properly be attributed to a different set of values amongst the students. It’s an opinion and not fact because I have no way of proving “culture” empirically.

I think my reasoning is sound, but I understand you’re not willing to admit that maybe “Hip Hop Culture” and its norms aren’t necessarily conducive to academic or economic success.

Shit, @Inglewood_B ain’t even willing to admit that gangbanging(!) hasn’t done anything good for Black people.

So yeah y’all are hopeless .