Free will. What is it and does it really exist?

[VIBE]

free will is an illusion, science backs this up

 

[DOS_patos]

That first part read like every bad guy in the movies that wants to kill everybody to free them. I concede that I do not know everything about death, especially not the afterlife or lack thereof. The way our bodies are programmed to react to danger tells me that in the grand scheme of things even your body (your vehicle through life) doesn't want death either. I do think it is healthy to questions most things, but speaking in the only I way I know how as a physical in the flesh human I know that there limitations placed on your body(by whom I am not sure). Can we go beyond that limit of course, but then you go down the rabbit hole of why the limits were placed in the first place. I believe the moment we beat/cheat death we will cease being human.

being human doesnt automatically mean death should be a requirement to be "human".

and our body reacting that way to death is like a burned out clutch on a car......its breaking down but still trying to go. our bodies being a vessel may not want death. it may seek continuance.

in some way maybe our consciousness and body are two very different things that merged. a symbiotic relationship beneficial to both. but one cant go on like the other.

and before anyone says...it sounds crazy.....you conscious is built from experiences over time. but your body.....it does all its own work without us being conscious,

alot of bodily functions are involuntary. it protects and does what it needs to do to survive. hunger pains, storing fat, will to release waste, needing rest. alot of that is against our own will because its what the body needs. so the body also needs the energy from the consciousness to help guide it to what it needs.

i like where this convo is going.

 

[DOS_patos]

I see people start to get there and end up choosing to go along with what's expected tho.

I pray I'm able to shake something up on the other side

surround yourself with people who are traveling the same path as you.

 

[DOS_patos]

I used to believe in free will until someone on the IC showed me it can't exist. If everyone is a product of their environment and they don't get to choose their environment then how much freedom of choice can I actually have?

Even more troubling for the idea of free will is trying to explain where it comes from. We don't really think animals have it. Where in the human brain does the ability to choose to do something come from? Based on everything else we know humans are mostly like other animals, simply responding to the environment based on a bunch of chemical reactions in the body and in the brain. There are test studies done with brain imaging where researchers can accurately predict what answer someone is going to choose before they choose it, just by looking at the brain activity.

Where is MY choice coming from then? I think it was actually BoldChild that showed me it can't exist

they didnt choose their enviroment because thats where they were because of those before them. before the human laws took over and made certain types of environments, what would our environment be? jungle? desert? thats being the product of social and human construct.

and far as brain activity.....it comes from what we learned over time. but they are measuring electrical pulses i would think.

 

[shutupGabi]

surround yourself with people who are traveling the same path as you.

Wheredeyatdoe

 

[ChicagoFigure]

Yea just bc u can see how the brain works and are able to explain it doesnt mean u arent 'measuring' or 'analyzing' free will taking place.

U can see dopamine levels shoot up when a person sees their loved one doesnt mean they dont actually love that person. But while we do have the capacity for 'love' or 'free will' due to these brain activities and functions we are also limited to what capacities we are given until new ones are discovered.

 

[AZTG]

What we think comes from what's already there tho. I could just be throwing shit at the wall rn, but I'm at a point where I'm questioning if the thoughts I have are actually my own. What philosophy is actually mine vs what was shaped by society/my environment/my peers/my family/history.

Like for example I just picked up a second job a while ago. I dont mind the actual work and the money is decent, but I'm always tired and I ain't had a social life since before the holidays. The reason I did that was because, for whatever reason, I felt like I needed more money. It was automatic. Now I'm like, do I really need this money or am I chasing some idea that says i shouldnt be happy unless I have x amount of money in the bank?

And I see this idea showing up in other places too. Like the guy that didn't have a dad growing up...he either ends up repeating it when he has his own kids or he goes hard and is crazy present. You either do what's there or you do the opposite. 2 choices. Lol.

This was dope.

I broke through this kind of thinking when I realized how much power I had in shaping my life. Which is a whole lot.

The thing here is that you mention how society has this philosophy of what should be and you are at a point where you feel like the opposite of what society says is right. The issue here is that you are still choosing between the 2 paths put forth by society. Either go with the zeitgeist or be anti zeitgeist. Both choices are still dictated to you by the zeitgeist.

I really think the ideal way of thinking is for people to bring their outlook all the way down to just themselves. Instead of seeing yourself as a small part of a huge society and trying to find where you fit in, you allow yourself to be the center of your thinking and the smallest actions you yourself take ends up having more importance than something global.

You get to a place where the action of making your bed in the morning becomes more important than Trumps state of the union.

At that point you realize the direction your life goes in is completely in your hands. Like you could decide your good as is and chill or decide that if you want to be an astronaut, all you gotta do is little shit like hit the books and go to school for a few years. Wanna social life? Just gotta go out to a bar tonight. Everything really is in your control.

Its really hard to explain and everyone is different so what works for me might not work for you. But when I somehow stopped caring, like really caring about anything beyond me, it really freed me.

 

[DOS_patos]

This was dope.

I broke through this kind of thinking when I realized how much power I had in shaping my life. Which is a whole lot.

The thing here is that you mention how society has this philosophy of what should be and you are at a point where you feel like the opposite of what society says is right. The issue here is that you are still choosing between the 2 paths put forth by society. Either go with the zeitgeist or be anti zeitgeist. Both choices are still dictated to you by the zeitgeist.

I really think the ideal way of thinking is for people to bring their outlook all the way down to just themselves. Instead of seeing yourself as a small part of a huge society and trying to find where you fit in, you allow yourself to be the center of your thinking and the smallest actions you yourself take ends up having more importance than something global.

You get to a place where the action of making your bed in the morning becomes more important than Trumps state of the union.

At that point you realize the direction your life goes in is completely in your hands. Like you could decide your good as is and chill or decide that if you want to be an astronaut, all you gotta do is little shit like hit the books and go to school for a few years. Wanna social life? Just gotta go out to a bar tonight. Everything really is in your control.

Its really hard to explain and everyone is different so what works for me might not work for you. But when I somehow stopped caring, like really caring about anything beyond me, it really freed me.

this shit hit it on the head.


this sums everything.

i applaud both of you.
once you see how much you can control you will see the world differently.

i know for me...at time i tend to look back and wonder what the fuck was i thinking.

and honestly...our hoods have alot to do with why we feel the ways we feel.
alot goes on without a proper explanation which leave alot of people running into walls.

i am just glad the both of you are see it is an option..
you dont need to be what society labels you.

 

[DOS_patos]

Wheredeyatdoe

this is a whole nother thread....

but imma use this at another time...because you have posed a very good question.

but they are out there. you might have to initiate finding them or they may already see you and dont know how to approach you.

but its alot of like minded people....they are saying the same as you but some of them are afraid to speak out about it.

once you start down the path it can seem like you are isolated but thats only because you are not aware of what you are seeing.

 

[100MBS]

being human doesnt automatically mean death should be a requirement to be "human".

and our body reacting that way to death is like a burned out clutch on a car......its breaking down but still trying to go. our bodies being a vessel may not want death. it may seek continuance.

in some way maybe our consciousness and body are two very different things that merged. a symbiotic relationship beneficial to both. but one cant go on like the other.

and before anyone says...it sounds crazy.....you conscious is built from experiences over time. but your body.....it does all its own work without us being conscious,

alot of bodily functions are involuntary. it protects and does what it needs to do to survive. hunger pains, storing fat, will to release waste, needing rest. alot of that is against our own will because its what the body needs. so the body also needs the energy from the consciousness to help guide it to what it needs.

i like where this convo is going.

I feel like our relationship with death is exactly what makes us human. A lot of our decisions are time based and safety based. A lot of life decisions are predicated on where your at in life age wise and finding a place to safely raise your offspring. We fear death so naturally that our body has multiple triggers to respond to it. A caveat would be that adrenaline seems to override a lot of these safety triggers but that's a bit more scientific than what we are discussing. To your point about the car clutch working by design, the body differs in that we dont know the purpose of the body's design other than self sufficiency. You can identify the creator of the clutch and their reasoning for it being created. Both of these things are unknown in relation to the human body (not referring to your conception but the overall design of the human form). Imo death is important to being human because it is our antithesis or the ying to our yang. We understand life more and more each day as a species but not as much about death. Death is the last question to be answered and naturally isn't answered until your life ends.

 

[DOS_patos]

I feel like our relationship with death is exactly what makes us human. A lot of our decisions are time based and safety based. A lot of life decisions are predicated on where your at in life age wise and finding a place to safely raise your offspring. We fear death so naturally that our body has multiple triggers to respond to it. A caveat would be that adrenaline seems to override a lot of these safety triggers but that's a bit more scientific than what we are discussing. To your point about the car clutch working by design, the body differs in that we dont know the purpose of the body's design other than self sufficiency. You can identify the creator of the clutch and their reasoning for it being created. Both of these things are unknown in relation to the human body (not referring to your conception but the overall design of the human form). Imo death is important to being human because it is our antithesis or the ying to our yang. We understand life more and more each day as a species but not as much about death. Death is the last question to be answered and naturally isn't answered until your life ends.

great comeback!

imma finish cooking this salmon and ill be right back.

 

[808HiLife808]

Chicken or the egg..


Depends on your belief system. Non religious people, religious people, or fate/destiny/determinism people

 

[CeLLar-DooR]

If free will is the ability to literally do anything that bends the laws of nature then of course it doesnt exist its impossible.

But we do have free will of choice, not of consequence.

Was gonna post this pretty much word for word

 

[DOS_patos]

I feel like our relationship with death is exactly what makes us human. A lot of our decisions are time based and safety based. A lot of life decisions are predicated on where your at in life age wise and finding a place to safely raise your offspring. We fear death so naturally that our body has multiple triggers to respond to it. A caveat would be that adrenaline seems to override a lot of these safety triggers but that's a bit more scientific than what we are discussing. To your point about the car clutch working by design, the body differs in that we dont know the purpose of the body's design other than self sufficiency. You can identify the creator of the clutch and their reasoning for it being created. Both of these things are unknown in relation to the human body (not referring to your conception but the overall design of the human form). Imo death is important to being human because it is our antithesis or the ying to our yang. We understand life more and more each day as a species but not as much about death. Death is the last question to be answered and naturally isn't answered until your life ends.

OK...I'm back.

Decisions being time based are for some and not others. I see young kids being wreckless thinking tomorrow will come and not to worry. What usually changes that thought process is the construct placed on society. You work , you can eat.
So when them young wreckless people get old they try to get there life right. Because life is now becoming hard. Its not that they will die soon.
I also see people gamble with death, fighting in cars, joining gangs, doing drugs. Some chase death hoping to be released from this worlds bondage that gives them stress.

And with that all...its not death we fear...its the unknown.

As for our bodies....we are learning more about it at lighting speeds. We are growing replacement and shit to repair things like replacing a clutch in a car.

We are literally playing God. Trying to master us as Gods creation and trying to avoid death.

It all comes from the will to want to seek knowledge. We can still enjoy game of thrones and holla at the married dark skinned chick up the street.

But if death was removed as an option....do you think people would react differently?

 

[ChicagoFigure]

neuroplasticity is the ability to rewire your brain mentally. without drugs, medicine or surgery. takes time just like building strength in your muscle. before u build your muscle u are confined to your weakness but if u build it up u enable yourself to greater strengths. your mind is the same way. if u can literally rewire your brain for better or worse, although still confined to natural human restrictions, u can have free will.

 

[DOS_patos]

neuroplasticity is the ability to rewire your brain mentally. without drugs, medicine or surgery. takes time just like building strength in your muscle. before u build your muscle u are confined to your weakness but if u build it up u enable yourself to greater strengths. your mind is the same way. if u can literally rewire your brain for better or worse, although still confined to natural human restrictions, u can have free will.

So you saying freewill is possible but limited by our physical form.

 

[ChicagoFigure]

So you saying freewill is possible but limited by our physical form.

Naw, even if that might be true, I was using the physical as an analogy.
Cuz it seems a lot of people's interpretation of free will is to will yourself to anything at any given time. That's simply not possible but doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. Because u can will yourself to eventually achieve anything that's humanly possible.

I cant bench press 250 right now no matter how bad I want it, but I can discipline my mind and body to one day achieve it. I always have that choice and I make that decision over and over everytime I go to the gym, eat healthy meals, etc until I achieve what I desired out of free will.

Doesn't matter where u were born or under what circumstances or what society tells u is normal. Once u learn of other possibilities u can choose whatever tf u want and change your mind back. Human nature might play a part against free will somewhere in here, but I don't think to the complete detriment of free will.

 

[100MBS]

OK...I'm back.

Decisions being time based are for some and not others. I see young kids being wreckless thinking tomorrow will come and not to worry. What usually changes that thought process is the construct placed on society. You work , you can eat.
So when them young wreckless people get old they try to get there life right. Because life is now becoming hard. Its not that they will die soon.
I also see people gamble with death, fighting in cars, joining gangs, doing drugs. Some chase death hoping to be released from this worlds bondage that gives them stress.

And with that all...its not death we fear...its the unknown.

As for our bodies....we are learning more about it at lighting speeds. We are growing replacement and shit to repair things like replacing a clutch in a car.

We are literally playing God. Trying to master us as Gods creation and trying to avoid death.

It all comes from the will to want to seek knowledge. We can still enjoy game of thrones and holla at the married dark skinned chick up the street.

But if death was removed as an option....do you think people would react differently?

You're right about young people feeling and viewing themselves as invincible. That could be argued based on the time period. My grandparents growing up certainly arent anything like how I was growing up. A lot of those things you listed as chasing death fall under adrenaline usually and people feel a rush while doing them. Adrenaline and drug use can numb your body's natural reactions to death. Same with anti depressants that a lot of mass killers are on, they cause detachment. It's an unnatural altering of brain chemistry. We are saying the same thing about fearing death/unknown. They are one and the same because the big question has always been what happens after you die. I personally feel like that is what causes people to gravitate to religion. Not just the sense of community but it also provides answers to a lot of questions(regardless of if they are half truths or lies). As for society's quest for knowledge, we are bound to keep pushing the envelop because we have a vast capacity for growth. We haven't found our limit yet so it is inevitable that we will start to venture into paths that were once taboo. I didn't mean for my comments about no longer being human to come off as a negative. More so that once we transcend even death we would become something else. What that something else is isn't quite clear.

 

[LUCIEN]

All you "free will is real" folks, think about this:

Frito Lay, the potato chip company, has a facility in Dallas where they spends millions of dollars every year to research how to get people to habitually eat their unhealthy products. They break down the science of snacks right to equations that determine things how crunchy people want their chips ("people like a chip that snaps with about four pounds of pressure per square inch"). If we have free will, what does that mean for us in a capitalist society where companies like Frito Lay are constantly making us do what they want with advertising and by selling us addictive products? How much freedom can I have? To me that shows that the environment and the things we are exposed to always interrupt our free will

 

[ChicagoFigure]

All you "free will is real" folks, think about this:

Frito Lay, the potato chip company, has a facility in Dallas where they spends millions of dollars every year to research how to get people to habitually eat their unhealthy products. They break down the science of snacks right to equations that determine things how crunchy people want their chips ("people like a chip that snaps with about four pounds of pressure per square inch"). If we have free will, what does that mean for us in a capitalist society where companies like Frito Lay are constantly making us do what they want with advertising and by selling us addictive products? How much freedom can I have? To me that shows that the environment and the things we are exposed to always interrupt our free will

@ bolded it is always our choice to make unhealthy choices. Some are more prone to diff addictions than others but anyone can live relatively healthy if they choose to.

Any addict can get clean if they choose to.
Anyone who smokes cigs can quit if they choose to. Just bc it used to be successfully heavily marketed bc of its addictive chemicals and "cool" image doesnt mean u didnt practice the free will to either partake or avoid consuming it.