“And let me explain how you contradicted yourself. You said it’s a simple minded generalization that “niggas are lazy” and how did that start? It damn sure wasn’t niggas calling themselves lazy as a collective group.”
Straight Black Men Are the White People of Black People
- Thread starter Duwop
- Start date
“And let me explain how you contradicted yourself. You said it’s a simple minded generalization that “niggas are lazy” and how did that start? It damn sure wasn’t niggas calling themselves lazy as a collective group.”
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
What rhetoric is that? I don't deny that some things I say may be similar to some things you here from white people, but the shit they say isn't just wrong because of what they are saying. It's usually wrong because of why they are saying it. If some whites say that blacks should stop whining about racism and do their own thing. They are fucked up because they are saying that to dismiss the effects of white supremacy on blacks. I might say that I believe that blacks should stop worrying about racism and invest in our own. That's a similar sentiment, but I'm not dismissing racism, I'm expressing my belief that if we believe in ourselves and work for ourselves, we can win regardless of racism.
And no I don't agree with your last statement, but only because I look at it in a different context. White supremacy has been around for a while yes, but it's only a drop in the bucket compared to human civilization. They want us to believe they are the end all and be all, but for most of human history, outside of Rome and Greece, Europeans haven't been all that important. Even now, they feel like they are losing control, and they are to some extent. That's why they are wilding out. I don't think they have been constantly outsmarting us. I just think social change takes longer and moves slower than most people believe. I think the biggest obstacle to blacks is blacks. Like some people say integration was a bad thing. I disagree. I think integration was a good thing. However, us giving up the unity in our community so some of us could go try and be buddy buddy with white people was a bad thing. You can't blame that on white people because whites didn't even want that to happen.
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
Yeah, but I didn't contradict myself because I agreed with you that whites were the progenitors of shit like that. However, I gave an example of how someone within the black community could come to a similar conclusion about black men as the white supremacists without actually being influenced by white supremacists.
So generalizing an entire race of men is not a tactic of white supremacists?
You believe that generalization of blacks is valid and not conditioned to us by white supremacy. This is what this conversation is about right? And if these white supremacists have black people collectively under their thumb for this long then it’s safe to say that they must be smart for having this control over us for this long? Right?
LUCIEN
I hate getting punched in the head
This is not entirely true. While the image of the 'thug' black man is more exaggerated, there is definitely a similar connotation associated with Black Women
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
It is, but making stupid generalizations isn't unique to white supremacists. People make stupid generalizations about members of the opposite sex just as often if not more so.
I didn't say the generalizations are valid. I also did not say that conditioning is not at play. What I said, was that not every action by blacks has to be due to some insidious plan by the white man. Again, you're the one trying to trace every bad action that black people commit to white conditioning. I'm not. I don't believe that. I believe they may have started the ball rolling, but we're the ones that keep it going in that direction. We probably aren't going to agree on that point, so we can dead this.
We can dead this but only after you get the last word? I can play the “i didn’t say you said” game as well. Stupid generalizations is not unique to white supremacists and it seems like you’re just looking for an argument or you want to argue a point that I neither said or even implied.
As far as the bold. Did you read what I said? Sheesh. Or are you just reading just to respond?
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
I have no idea what you're talking about dude. I responded directly back to what you said. Every time we have a discussion. You say some shit and then a few posts later act like you didn't say it or that I'm trying to twist something.
Your specific words were:
All I did was point out that I didn't concur with your assessment in the bold. That's what you believe. I don't believe white supremacists have under their thumbs due to their smarts. I believe that we continue to be in the position that we are in largely because of internal problems that we don't fix. I don't really see how you can read your post, read my reply, and then act like what I said doesn't fit. But whatever, that's why I said we can dead it, not because I want the last word, but because none of our words are going anywhere. Now if it makes you feel better to come back and say something so you feel like you got over on me, then have it. If it's not something of substance I won't respond, so you can have it.
So if I’m always saying that then maybe you need to address what I say. You always create arguments that I never make then we get off track arguing about some shit that you thought I said or meant instead of replying to the point. I be like so water is wet, then you’d quote me and say something like I disagree water may be wet but ice cubes tend to be cold. Then we go back and forth arguing cold ice cubes, when my initial point was water is wet. I don’t know maybe you’re not doing it on purpose or it’s your strategy.
My point was that a lot of the negative stereotypes are due to conditioning by white supremacists, you for the most part agree with that, but then go off on a tangent about black people doing stuff, as if that has anything to do with the price of tea in China. When there is a system in place to purposely hold you back I’m not putting the blame on black people im blaming the people that create the obstacles, the people that control the narrative about black people. We tear each other down enough as it is already.
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
Not only that, but if you want to be real about who is outwitted by white supremacy, it isn't black people, it's poor white people. They are the ones that constantly vote and act against their own self interests because white elites tell them that non-whites are the enemy. The only reason the white supremacist system works is because poor whites believe the lies of the white elites. That's exactly the reason why MLK's next planned move after the Civil Rights movement was a similar movement in support of the poor and working class.
Old Man Cain
OG
Lawd knows she was.....amen
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
It's not a tangent. It's called pointing out where we disagree, and it is directly related to what we're talking about. Again, the core disagreement that we have is that you seem to believe that all the problems that black people face can be tracked back to white supremacist conditioning (if that's not what you are saying then correct me because that's what I'm getting). For the fiftieth time, I'm saying that I agree that such conditioning is at the source of our problems, but at this point we are also perpetuating problems independent of such conditioning. That's what I've been saying the whole discussion. So it's kinda mind boggling how you keep trying to paint the core argument I've been making for our entire discussion as a tangential offshoot. That makes no sense.
And what I'm saying is not about tearing each other down. You even making that comment shows you're not really even putting any thought into what I'm saying. You're just arguing against the words you see on the screen. All of this came from me giving my opinion, that a lot of black women are pushing these stereotypes about black men in an effort to boost themselves up. The comment was not made to tear black women down. It was to highlight the internal strife that is present within our communities. Once we acknowledge that strife, we can work to get rid of it. However, it does none of us any good to act like it's not there and pretend like some insidious plan by the White Man is the end all and be all of our problems.
Playmaker88
G Money is Cash
Pretty much what i say why powerful people are powerful.. because you have underlings willing to do whatever for that lil bit of cash, recognition and selfish ambition thats what they feed on people with a lack of a compass
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
I don't think people really understand where American racism comes from. It's not born from some innate hatred between the races. That's a myth pushed by white nationalists. Before blacks were brought here as slaves, they came here as indentured servants just like white people. They worked with whites, lived with whites, and intermarried with whites. There were no laws based on race and systemic racism didn't exist. None of that existed until after Bacon's Rebellion when the working class (both white and black) bucked the system in place and threatened what the white elites had established. After that, the elites implemented race based laws to break the unity within the working class. It's the exact same shit that happens today. It's how the Republicans can get their dumbass constituents to vote Trump based on his stances against nonwhites and then allow him to take away their healthcare, pass a tax law that further enriches the rich, and eventually gut benefits like Medicare and Social Security, which they depend on. Black people aren't the ones falling for that shit. White people are.
I’m saying=let’s blame the people that put black people in a messed up situation. You=fuck all that, how about the niggas. You say there are issues in black society well true, there are issues in every society, so what’s your point? Again stereotypes that were conditioned onto us by white supremacy. Is what we spew at each other, most problems in black society is because of white supremacy whether directly or indirectly, taking away resources leads to black people committing crimes due to a lack of opportunities. Drugs in the black communities, how did it get there? Mass incarceration and 3 strikes etc. I can go on. We can discuss the issues in black society but we’ve done that ad nauseam, I’m speaking specifically about WHY the stereotypes of black people exist and that’s due to conditioning. Black people did not condition themselves to be nothing but welfare queens, abusers, rapers, etc.
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
lol My point is that we can't change what white people did and we can't change what they are. What we can do is check ourselves and rebuild the unity we've lost. Yes, there is adversity against us, but we've risen above it in the past and we can do it again. There was a such thing as Black Wallstreet and yes it was destroyed by Whites, but if blacks could make something like that in a time when whites could legally act against black interests, why can't we do something similar now when such overt anti-black acts are out of the question. Again, this is a point we can agree to disagree on. You seem to think focusing on the wrong that whites have done is the best way for us to move forward. My belief is that ignoring whites for the most part and working on building our own community is the best way.
And again for the millionth time, I don't dispute that a lot of the stereotypes were born from whites. My point is that such stereotypes are simpleminded nonsense and its perfectly plausible that blacks can perpetuate such stereotypes without adhering to white supremacist conditioning. I even gave you an example. We know that it happens all the time that some females make bad choices in men and after being burned a few times will make the conclusion that "All men are dogs" or if they've only dealt with black men, they'll say "All black men are dogs." Your stance is that those women are making that conclusion based on white supremacist conditioning. My stance is such a conclusion could and probably does come from the tendency of people to foolishly draw conclusions based on small samples sets and inability to tell when a system has been biased. Again, I'm not saying racist conditioning is not a factor in the divisions within the black community. I'm saying that these echo chambers that spring up around foolishness that we ourselves perpetuate is also a factor, and that shouldn't be ignored.
So pretty much what are we going to do to make sure white supremacists don’t destroy prominent black communities if we get to that point again?
Blacks don’t perpetuate stereotypes, they do stuff and then when it happens black people go “see see look at those niggas”. Stereotypes that were conditioned onto us by white supremacy. Get it now?
The Lonious Monk
Celestial Souljah
Are we going to act like the country hasn't changed at all since then? You really think that some racists could just burn down a black community on the flimsiest of reasons now? You really think the U.S. government could firebomb an innocent black community and not have to answer for it? See this is the problem with the "it's just as bad as it was before the Civil Rights movement" rhetoric that some spew. It basically gives some people the excuse not to try and move forward all based on some faulty assumption that all the same things that happened then could happen now.
And as for your last statement, I got your opinion from the start. You can rephrase how you blame white people for our actions as much as you want. You're still just blaming white people for our actions. I've explained why I don't agree. I've pointed out how stereotypes can arise independent of white conditioning. You don't agree. Cool. Agree to disagree.