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SOME ABW Men apparently diss black women: thread about passport bros again

That song came out AFTER The Chronic on KRS ONE's rather popular "Return of the Boom Bap" album in 1993. There was plenty of positive music in those days. It's all about what you chose to listen to.








This is correct and what I've been saying in my replies. If you choose to take in all the "Black men/women ain't shit" rhetoric then that's a personal choice.
 
You're 100% correct, and some women have been pushing against those rappers for 30 years. They were right to do so, even though the rappers have always maintained that their songs weren't meant to be referendums about women in general but were talking about a specific kind of woman.

So if women can criticize men for behaving badly and I can admit that there are men who behave badly and need to be checked, how is it wrong for me to point out some shit that a lot of women do that's not cool. Like, I honestly don't get you and @BlackRain. It's cool that ya'll want to hold men accountable and are against trashing women, but why do ya'll always seem to take every negative thing that women say about me at face value and then turn around and act like women are beyond reproach. Women been making "Niggas ain't shit" songs for 30 years too. Who cares? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about basic interactions between black men and women and how and why that's broken.


You don’t want to talk about 30 years ago but want to talk about the how and why we got here. You study history bro the music bashing women in the 90s was waaaaay more popular and more heard than the opposite. It’s been barely any female rappers so no it’s not the exact same
 
Bruh, we don't have to agree. Agreement ain't the point, but you and the other dude play the same bullshit games. You act like I'm over here banging on my keys angrily. I honestly don't care that much about this. You love to call me out on arguing just to argue, so you have to know that I'm not emotionally invested in any of this shit. I'm happily married, so if all the single people out there crash and burn, I'm unaffected. I do have two daughters I'm raising though. And I would like them to be able to date, find love, and get married one day without having to traverse the mine field that the dating game seems to be today. Just stop with the bullshit. If you disagree with me, say that an leave it alone. You and the other dude can't actually make cogent arguments for why I'm wrong, and if you're not going to do that, then don't bother saying anything at all.



I don't care about what you say about your POV, just like if you have an opinion about my POV, you're not just going to drop that opinion because I say so. lol I'm going by what I've observed with my own eyes based on reading your stances on things. I'm not even saying I'm 100% right about my opinion on you because I haven't read every single post you've made or run some kinda analysis to determine the fairness of the points you make. All I can say is that based on what I actually have read, that's the impression I have, and you saying it's wrong isn't going to change that impression. It is what it is.

And I'm not personalizing anything. That's you. You're the one that keeps on trying to dismiss the points being made by claiming that people are just being offended or sensitive. Again, you've had every opportunity to look at the substance of what I said and post counterexamples or poke holes in the logic, but you haven't done that, you've just misrepresented statements and deflected.


I'm actually not above changing my opinion on something based on new information. And I did give you examples. The very same tv shows, music, podcast etc that you claim only denigrates Black men does a pretty good job of doing the same for Black women. Or do you simply choose to ignore the endless podcasts/social media commentary on "If a woman does *insert random act* she's not worthy of respect". Or the myriad of "These women gonna be bitter and lonely forever" comments that get made as well.

How about the fact that we even hold people in high regard within our own culture that have admitted past abuses against women and when they bring those issues to the forefront they get told to be quiet and it's not the right time. Just go look at the discourse on Jim Brown just last week and how some thought his past should never be mentioned unless it's all praise worthy. I mean shit Tina Turner just passed away and the abuse she suffered literally became a joke. People turned Ike Turner beating her into memes, punchlines and material to be used. You think seeing shit like that leaves a good impression on Black women to see generation after generation? To see abusers held in high regard and told their grievances and stories aren't worthy of being told because it might show somebody in a bad light and "We can't be looking bad in front of white folk" like some say?

You claim to want fairminded and balanced commentary yet the post I responded to that you made wasn't anything of the such. It was a "Yeah men say bad things but they say much worse." You claim to have no issue with stuff being called out but by your own admission in previous posts you do let negative commentary about women slide because you don't always see a need to call it out. You downplay the negative comments about women in music with "they said they're talking about a specific type of woman" but you can't extend that same logic to comments you see made about men and their actions? So why should you expect them or anyone else to give you any different treatment? That's not fair or balanced at all by your own admittance. You can't expect to get what you don't give in return. You just admitted in this very response you don't even actually know if what you're saying is correct in regards to me but you're gonna run with it because it's what you read even if you're told otherwise. So could it be said that you don't actually want to be fair and balanced? You just want agreement instead?

You're too busy trying to be right instead of actually having a discussion. If you really did read my posts then you'd see my response to you was never about right or wrong and was about you participating in the same discourse you say is so harmful.
 
You don’t want to talk about 30 years ago but want to talk about the how and why we got here. You study history bro the music bashing women in the 90s was waaaaay more popular and more heard than the opposite. It’s been barely any female rappers so no it’s not the exact same

It's not that I don't want to talk about 30 years ago. I just don't think dudes saying "bitches and hoes" on songs are the same as so-called black women scholars getting on news programs using bad data to paint black men a certain way. I concede that the misogyny in rap is terrible, but I just don't think that ever held as much weight as people who were engaging what were deemed to be serious discussions about this topic. I could be wrong on that because rap music has proven to be more influential than I thought back then.

I'm actually not above changing my opinion on something based on new information. And I did give you examples. The very same tv shows, music, podcast etc that you claim only denigrates Black men does a pretty good job of doing the same for Black women. Or do you simply choose to ignore the endless podcasts/social media commentary on "If a woman does *insert random act* she's not worthy of respect". Or the myriad of "These women gonna be bitter and lonely forever" comments that get made as well.

This is how I know you're not really paying attention to what I'm saying. I full admit that when you're talking about things like music and rando blogs and podcasts that shit goes both ways. I don't know if its equal. I personally, think women go a little hard, but it's not a big difference. You keep on accusing me of ignoring shit, and I keep on telling you that I am fully aware and agree that there are a lot of shots fired in both directions when it comes to those media. The examples I gave with women were things that were more institutionally backed and therefore given more credibility. That's the arena in which you see a lot of black women given a voice to talk down on black men, but not nearly as much the other way around.
 
Bruh, we don't have to agree. Agreement ain't the point, but you and the other dude play the same bullshit games. You act like I'm over here banging on my keys angrily. I honestly don't care that much about this. You love to call me out on arguing just to argue, so you have to know that I'm not emotionally invested in any of this shit. I'm happily married, so if all the single people out there crash and burn, I'm unaffected. I do have two daughters I'm raising though. And I would like them to be able to date, find love, and get married one day without having to traverse the mine field that the dating game seems to be today. Just stop with the bullshit. If you disagree with me, say that an leave it alone. You and the other dude can't actually make cogent arguments for why I'm wrong, and if you're not going to do that, then don't bother saying anything at all.



I don't care about what you say about your POV, just like if you have an opinion about my POV, you're not just going to drop that opinion because I say so. lol I'm going by what I've observed with my own eyes based on reading your stances on things. I'm not even saying I'm 100% right about my opinion on you because I haven't read every single post you've made or run some kinda analysis to determine the fairness of the points you make. All I can say is that based on what I actually have read, that's the impression I have, and you saying it's wrong isn't going to change that impression. It is what it is.

And I'm not personalizing anything. That's you. You're the one that keeps on trying to dismiss the points being made by claiming that people are just being offended or sensitive. Again, you've had every opportunity to look at the substance of what I said and post counterexamples or poke holes in the logic, but you haven't done that, you've just misrepresented statements and deflected.



I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here. All I want you to do is be fair minded.

You and I have been over this before. I don't mind you defending women from the sexists or misogynisic dudes on this site. My problem is that often when you do, you spout the exact same talking points that a lot of man hating women use. That doesn't make sense to me. Women aren't men, so there are things they are going to get wrong when they criticize men, just because they don't really know or understand what its like to be a man or how men think. When you, a man, say some of those same things, it just strikes me as weird, because I can't understand how a dude would think that way.

Think about it. Imagine some chicks made a topic bashing black fathers in response to single mothers getting dragged on here. If I came in here and started cosigning all that shit or spouting the same shit, all the black fathers on this site would look at me weird. Not because anybody believes black fathers are above criticism but because some of those criticisms are factually incorrect, and every involved black father knows that.



Bruh again I’m fair minded you just don’t view it that way. If you tired of what I’m writing then get over it because we had this conversation at least three times. If I can’t reach you and you can’t reach me let it go. Also just because I don’t agree and bash women does mean I think like women and bash men. But you see it that way because in my eyes you look at any criticism as coming only from the bitter people. You say you want to know why things are the way they are but you just stated you don’t really care so what is it bro. Are we going to do this every topic and reach the same conclusion that we won’t agree?


I don’t think Black women go that hard at Black men in the mainstream I think that is some YouTube shit made to look more common.


I mean we haven’t had any women besides maybe race go in on dudes. The opposite cannot be said you’re literally on this site and don’t see it. Is it because you agree with it? You got entire thesis for me but quiet on the opposite side.
 
It's not that I don't want to talk about 30 years ago. I just don't think dudes saying "bitches and hoes" on songs are the same as so-called black women scholars getting on news programs using bad data to paint black men a certain way. I concede that the misogyny in rap is terrible, but I just don't think that ever held as much weight as people who were engaging what were deemed to be serious discussions about this topic. I could be wrong on that because rap music has proven to be more influential than I thought back then.



This is how I know you're not really paying attention to what I'm saying. I full admit that when you're talking about things like music and rando blogs and podcasts that shit goes both ways. I don't know if its equal. I personally, think women go a little hard, but it's not a big difference. You keep on accusing me of ignoring shit, and I keep on telling you that I am fully aware and agree that there are a lot of shots fired in both directions when it comes to those media. The examples I gave with women were things that were more institutionally backed and therefore given more credibility. That's the arena in which you see a lot of black women given a voice to talk down on black men, but not nearly as much the other way around.


I did t say it was the same but it did not come from nowhere but that’s not part of the discussion
 
I understand both sides of the argument going on in here

but I want to know what is the Black woman equivalent of term "bullet bag"?

I think that is what gives credibility to the argument that BW bash BM more than vice versa


but IMO it's not really that bashing actually happens more 1 way vs. the other

it's just the point that there are forums that seem to legitimize BW's criticisms of BM more than the other way around


I can't ever recall a forum full of educated BM on a daytime talk show talking about how BW are too subpar in comparison

but I've seen/heard of multiple media sources with educated BW stating how many BM don't meet their qualifications😟
 
It's not that I don't want to talk about 30 years ago. I just don't think dudes saying "bitches and hoes" on songs are the same as so-called black women scholars getting on news programs using bad data to paint black men a certain way. I concede that the misogyny in rap is terrible, but I just don't think that ever held as much weight as people who were engaging what were deemed to be serious discussions about this topic. I could be wrong on that because rap music has proven to be more influential than I thought back then.



This is how I know you're not really paying attention to what I'm saying. I full admit that when you're talking about things like music and rando blogs and podcasts that shit goes both ways. I don't know if its equal. I personally, think women go a little hard, but it's not a big difference. You keep on accusing me of ignoring shit, and I keep on telling you that I am fully aware and agree that there are a lot of shots fired in both directions when it comes to those media. The examples I gave with women were things that were more institutionally backed and therefore given more credibility. That's the arena in which you see a lot of black women given a voice to talk down on black men, but not nearly as much the other way around.

So you went from "it's not even close that women go harder" to "it's not a big difference". That's a pretty big change there. And you're incorrect in that the shit Black men say about Black women isn't backed the same way because it's all coming from the same media sources. The same media company that's producing whatever random comments you're seeing about men are also giving a platform for the same vitriol to be produced about women. And in 2023 the way media is consumed podcast and social media have just as much sway as any other media source in how it shapes people povs. It's all backed by the same people and institutions you claim aren't.

Also While you may not personally think that music has the damaging effect as a one off ABC special it does. Because I can guarantee you that more people can quote "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks" than a stat about the community and in home involvement of Black fathers. More people know that Jay Z once rapped "You know thug em, I fuck em, love em, leave em/cuz I don't fucking need them" in 1999 than can tell you what was said on a random ABC special from 2010.
 
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I understand both sides of the argument going on in here

but I want to know what is the Black woman equivalent of term "bullet bag"?

I think that is what gives credibility to the argument that BW bash BM more than vice versa


but IMO it's not really that bashing actually happens more 1 way vs. the other

it's just the point that there are forums that seem to legitimize BW's criticisms of BM more than the other way around


I can't ever recall a forum full of educated BM on a daytime talk show talking about how BW are too subpar in comparison

but I've seen/heard of multiple media sources with educated BW stating how many BM don't meet their qualifications😟

The somewhat equivalent would most likely be "bedwench". As far as to why it seems to be more BW being seen doing now as opposed to before...well just think that women in general have only had a media presence to present such topics for a short time in comparison. So like many other things there's an overcorrection that happens where everyone who felts ignored before now has a voice and platform. Now it becomes the job of the audience to use their brains to decipher the relevant shit from the irrelevant. And those who latch onto the most nonsensical claims are usually just looking for an excuse to be dismissive anyways and thats what the loud stupid "all men are evil" brigade gives them.

As far as the talk show type shit let's be real. That's never really been men medium for that shit. There's been other ways those complaints have typically be brought to the surface. There's been entire books and movies based on what women "should" be doing. That Steve Harvey Think Like A Man shit ain't sell for years for no reason
 
So you went from "it's not even close that women go harder" to "it's not a big difference". That's a pretty big change there. And you're incorrect in that the shit Black men say about Black women isn't backed the same way because it's all coming from the same media sources. The same media company that's producing whatever random comments you're seeing about men are also giving a platform for the same vitriol to be produced about women. And in 2023 the way media is consumed podcast and social media have just as much sway as any other media source in how it shapes people povs. It's all backed by the same people and institutions you claim aren't.

Also While you may not personally think that music has the damaging effect as a one off ABC special it does. Because I can guarantee you that more people can quote "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks" than a stat about the community and in home involvement of Black fathers. More people know that Jay Z once rapped "You know thug em, I fuck em, love em, leave em/cuz I don't fucking need them" in 1999 than can tell you what was said on a random ABC special from 2010.
comparing rapper's lyrics are not really equivalent to a professional educated BW consistently quoting statistics about the shortcomings of BM

I would think the opinions of what seems to be from normal BW with degrees would automatically have more credibility than an entertainer saying rap lyrics

especially to younger folks who are impressionable:js4:
 
The somewhat equivalent would most likely be "bedwench". As far as to why it seems to be more BW being seen doing now as opposed to before...well just think that women in general have only had a media presence to present such topics for a short time in comparison. So like many other things there's an overcorrection that happens where everyone who felts ignored before now has a voice and platform. Now it becomes the job of the audience to use their brains to decipher the relevant shit from the irrelevant. And those who latch onto the most nonsensical claims are usually just looking for an excuse to be dismissive anyways and thats what the loud stupid "all men are evil" brigade gives them.

As far as the talk show type shit let's be real. That's never really been men medium for that shit. There's been other ways those complaints have typically be brought to the surface. There's been entire books and movies based on what women "should" be doing. That Steve Harvey Think Like A Man shit ain't sell for years for no reason

u think being called a "bedwench" is equivalent to being called a "bullet bag"?:yikes1:


and I get referencing platforms today such as social media..........but I think the point is that this criticism from BW goes back decades.........and I don't think it's overcorrection becuz we've heard the same comments in different forms of media

when BM said "bitches and hoes" in rap lyrics over the last 30yrs, meanwhile talk shows have hosted BW talking down on BM

today the bashing back and forth has roots that go past the recent social media blogs/twitter/etc

but it's hard to compare rappers talking shit to regular educated women calling BM bullet bags



being a bedwench implies fucking white dudes, but being called a bullet bag literally is making light of BM being killed😟

I really don't see that as the same type of bashing......which goes to the points made by @The Lonious Monk
 
comparing rapper's lyrics are not really equivalent to a professional educated BW consistently quoting statistics about the shortcomings of BM

I would think the opinions of what seems to be from normal BW with degrees would automatically have more credibility than an entertainer saying rap lyrics

especially to younger folks who are impressionable:js4:

This is true in for what you'd hope for but let's be real whose more influential? You think the average teen to 20 something is pulling up a Ta-nehisi Coates discussion on how Black men are seen in this world or they listening to whatever their favorite rappers saying? You think they showing up to a panel discussion on how the way welfare was distributed contributed to the idea that Black men wouldn't or in many instances couldn't be in the home or a Lil Durk show first?
 
u think being called a "bedwench" is equivalent to being called a "bullet bag"?:yikes1:


and I get referencing platforms today such as social media..........but I think the point is that this criticism from BW goes back decades.........and I don't think it's overcorrection becuz we've heard the same comments in different forms of media

when BM said "bitches and hoes" in rap lyrics over the last 30yrs, meanwhile talk shows have hosted BW talking down on BM

today the bashing back and forth has roots that go past the recent social media blogs/twitter/etc

but it's hard to compare rappers talking shit to regular educated women calling BM bullet bags



being a bedwench implies fucking white dudes, but being called a bullet bag literally is making light of BM being killed😟

I really don't see that as the same type of bashing......which goes to the points made by @The Lonious Monk

I don't personally agree no but I've seen that question before and that has been the answer I've seen repeated the most in terms of bed wench/bullet bags. Also a bedwench was a woman who was raped by her slavemaster so twisting that term to be an insult to Black women who choose to fuck with white men on their own accord is foul given the word's history. And yes the criticism from BW goes back decades. So does the criticism from BM like I said the platforms were just different. It ain't like Black women was just existing in some fairtyale land of equality free from judgement of Black men and they just lunched out one day and started saying wild shit.

And even if you don't wanna compare "bitches and hoes" you can easily then say what about the countless lyrics stating women are worth nothing more than their pussy? Aren't to be trusted and should always be treated as second class because...well no reason was ever given that's just how some folks saw/spoke on how it should be. Or the fact that there were and continue to be literal laws written and supported that tell women what they can and can't do with their own bodies and how some Black men have adopted and try to reinforce those same control measures over women they know. Or hell even over women they don't even know.
 
This is true in for what you'd hope for but let's be real whose more influential? You think the average teen to 20 something is pulling up a Ta-nehisi Coates discussion on how Black men are seen in this world or they listening to whatever their favorite rappers saying? You think they showing up to a panel discussion on how the way welfare was distributed contributed to the idea that Black men wouldn't or in many instances couldn't be in the home or a Lil Durk show first?
well let's be real.....we can assume most average teenagers will "age-out" of being influenced by rap lyrics at some point

when people mature they tend not to give too much credence to entertainers.........hence u even got lawyers/doctors/engineers who still listen to rap music and it has minimal affect on their real lives


but when u host forums with "credible" people sending the same message it hits different and it endures

so u take young black kids listening to messages from BW with degrees who have bashed BM for decades..........that message has more of an impact in so many ways

hell I can use myself......I grew up going to schools where BW were in charge (teachers/principals)...and listening to those negative messages did have an affect on my own self worth

and I've even seen it as an adult at professional jobs where BW automatically assume the worse about BM in the office.....we all know where that messaging came from if were being honest

so what is my son thinking when BW are calling him and his peers bullet bags?

what is my daughter thinking about BM when the "upper tier" BW bash BM that way?
 
I don't personally agree no but I've seen that question before and that has been the answer I've seen repeated the most in terms of bed wench/bullet bags. Also a bedwench was a woman who was raped by her slavemaster so twisting that term to be an insult to Black women who choose to fuck with white men on their own accord is foul given the word's history. And yes the criticism from BW goes back decades. So does the criticism from BM like I said the platforms were just different. It ain't like Black women was just existing in some fairtyale land of equality free from judgement of Black men and they just lunched out one day and started saying wild shit.

And even if you don't wanna compare "bitches and hoes" you can easily then say what about the countless lyrics stating women are worth nothing more than their pussy? Aren't to be trusted and should always be treated as second class because...well no reason was ever given that's just how some folks saw/spoke on how it should be. Or the fact that there were and continue to be literal laws written and supported that tell women what they can and can't do with their own bodies and how some Black men have adopted and try to reinforce those same control measures over women they know. Or hell even over women they don't even know.

😂@ the orange text

but please give an example of the underlined
 
Just go look at how many Black folks either already bought into or have been caught down the rabbit hole of conservative Christian values and how it dictates their stances on things
could u be more specific with an example

we could make a whole thread on Black Christian hypocrisy alone

but how can BM enforce laws or control others when they don't really have that type of power
 
well let's be real.....we can assume most average teenagers will "age-out" of being influenced by rap lyrics at some point

when people mature they tend not to give too much credence to entertainers.........hence u even got lawyers/doctors/engineers who still listen to rap music and it has minimal affect on their real lives


but when u host forums with "credible" people sending the same message it hits different and it endures

so u take young black kids listening to messages from BW with degrees who have bashed BM for decades..........that message has more of an impact in so many ways

hell I can use myself......I grew up going to schools where BW were in charge (teachers/principals)...and listening to those negative messages did have an affect on my own self worth

and I've even seen it as an adult at professional jobs where BW automatically assume the worse about BM in the office.....we all know where that messaging came from if were being honest

so what is my son thinking when BW are calling him and his peers bullet bags?

what is my daughter thinking about BM when the "upper tier" BW bash BM that way?

Again...those same questions can be asked the other way too which is my point. There is no "worse". It's all fucked up. I hated hearing the "all the good Black men are dead or in jail" shit growing up too. Matter of fact if you remember the model Tocarra, fine as hell and was all over in the 2000s, til this day I find her stupid because she said that shit on a tv show years ago. I never pretended or said the shit was unheard of or has no ill effects. I talk to my oldest nephew, he's 23, about that shit to make sure he's not taking in any of that rhetoric as a way to view the world whether it's about women or men.

But you can also ask "what's a young Black woman to think when her peers and older Black men expouse rhetoric that tells her if she ain't fucking the 1st night she's not worth any attention?" Or "If you happen to find yourself as a single parent you're somehow not worthy of being loved and cared for because the assumption is you fucked an ain't shit nigga who left you." Shit what would a young Black woman think if she read an ABW thread about a woman being sexually assaulted and there's scores of "well maybe it's not really assault" posts or "why she trying to take a Black man down"? What's she to think when she reads about Jonathan Majors and sees some Black men commenting "see thats why he need a Black woman. She wouldn't have said nothing"

The shit ain't no better or worse for anybody. It's ALL bad
 
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