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ESPN: The Last Dance ('98 Bulls Doc)

mryounggun said:
This is why I always felt like the Lebron hate about his finals record was bullshit. I honestly think there was only ONE time in the finals that he had the better team and lost. That was against Dallas.

Every. Single. Other. Time. they lost to a team that was better. And some of them years, they had no business at all in the Finals. The nigga dragged them there, kicking and screaming.

Now if we wanna say 'The GOAT would have found a way to win those series', even if the other team was better.', that's one thing. Maybe, maybe not. But people seem to think he somehow UNDERPERFORMED in those finals series, just because his team didn't win.

We can all appreciate how much a great player can determine things in the NBA. More than any other sport. But we also can go so far down that road that we forget that, sometimes...the other team is just better.
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And this is where the case against Bron gets misconstrued.

We'll all admit: the Dallas series was the only one he legit blew and should've won.

But, looking at the other Finals Ls:

'07 - Pretty much A.I.'d those Cavs to Finals. Had players named Boobie and Drew in the starting line-up. Got smoked by the well-oiled machine that is the Spurs

'14 - Revenge of the Spurs. Basically, Bron played 1.5 vs. 10, with one different teammate choosing to pitch in per game, while all the others were off every game.

'15 - No Kevin Love, No Kyrie after Game 1. Played all five positions in the series. The legit Finals MVP, but was overmatched against the young Dubs. How he got them two wins after Kyrie's knee basically imploded is amazing in itself.

'17 - GS Added Durant. Shit was just flat-out unfair.

'18 - A cross between '07 and '17, just without Kyrie. A miracle he even got that team to the Finals. One of the better individual playoff runs I've ever seen. (Damn shame what he did to the Raptors.) Add to that, JR got back to doing JR shit at the end of Game 1, and well...
:niggaa:
 
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Mister B. said:
But he also threw in Stevie Wonder as Kareem.

Kareem and Stevie have had longer, more successful careers and have been much more consistent in their craft and greatness.

The point can’t be refuted.
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Define “successful”.

I would argue there may never have been a more successful Artist than Michael Jackson.
 
Mister B. said:
And this is where the case against Bron gets misconstrued.

We'll all admit: the Dallas series was the only one he legit blew and should've won.

But, looking at the other Finals Ls:

'07 - Pretty much A.I.'d those Cavs to Finals. Had players named Boobie and Drew in the starting line-up. Got smoked by the well-oiled machine that is the Spurs

'14 - Revenge of the Spurs. Basically, Bron played 1.5 vs. 10, with one different teammate choosing to pitch in per game, while all the others were off every game.

'15 - No Kevin Love, No Kyrie after Game 1. Played all five positions in the series. The legit Finals MVP, but was overmatched against the young Dubs. How we got them two wins is amazing in itself.

'17 - GS Added Durant. Shit was just flat-out unfair.

'18 - A cross between '07 and '17, just without Kyrie. A miracle he even got them to the Finals. Add to that JR doing JR shit at the end of Game 1, and well...
:niggaa:
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Lol this will get ignored by the Bron Hate Brigade
 
Peace_79 said:
Define “successful”.

I would argue there may never have been a more successful Artist than Michael Jackson.
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Both Stevie and Mike have sold over 100 million records in their careers.

Stevie has way more awards, including Grammys (personally, I think the Grammys are a sham now, but back at least in the 70s, 80s, and part of the 90s, they still had some merit).

Stevie is also the more accomplished musician, having a wider musical background. Mike is a singer and a dancer (albeit, probably the best ever), but Stevie is also a singer and can play over 20 instruments.
 
Mister B. said:
Both Stevie and Mike have sold over 100 million records in their careers.

Stevie has way more awards, including Grammys (personally, I think the Grammys are a sham, back at least in the 70s, 80s, and part of the 90s, they still had merit).

Stevie is also the more accomplished musician, having a wider musical background. Mike is a singer and a dancer (albeit, probably the best ever), but Stevie is also a singer and can play over 20 instruments.
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A lot of that speaks to longevity, natural talent and versatility - not success.

Nobody did it like Mike at his peak. He changed the industry.

You looking at it from a well rounded perspective. I’m looking at it from a perspective of impact, peak, and exceptionalism.

Take a kid born in this millennium who knew nothing about either dude. Then take them back in time to MJ’s peak years and then Stevie’s peak years.

Ask them who was more “successful”.

I like Stevie more than Mike - I think he is overall more talented. I like his music more.

But - NOBODY was more successful in the music industry than Michael Jackson.
 
Peace_79 said:
A lot of that speaks to longevity, natural talent and versatility - not success.

Nobody did it like Mike at his peak. He changed the industry.

You looking at it from a well rounded perspective. I’m looking at it from a perspective of impact, peak, and exceptionalism.

Take a kid born in this millennium who knew nothing about either dude. Then take them back in time to MJ’s peak years and then Stevie’s peak years.

Ask them who was more “successful”.

I like Stevie more than Mike - I think he is overall more talented. I like his music more.

But - NOBODY was more successful in the music industry than Michael Jackson.
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And that's the thing: we're looking at two different versions of "success."

You're talking about a peak, or a small period of greatness. I'm talking about literal DECADES of excellence. Let's not act like Songs in the Key of Life, Talking Book, and Innervisions weren't as influencial to American music either.

On his own, Mike's peak was 82 (Thriller)-87 (Bad). I admit: NO other artist had that type of success as a solo act that could match what Mike did. Thriller is still the highest selling album ever. Bad was literally an album of Top 10 (mostly #1) hits. That's a three-peat, plus the 72-10 season in itself.

But Stevie has been consistently excellent through the 60s, 70, 80s, and even a early part of the 90s.

Greatness is not a race. Whether you do it in 1 year, or 50, it's still greatness. I'd actually argue that the longer career is admirable, cause we've seen stars burn bright for 1-2 years, and in 5 years, completely fade from the industry. Not to say that was happening with Mike, but Stevie just got a more sustained period of high acclaim for his craft.

And that's what the Mike vs. Kareem debate bases down to: 91-98 (with 94 and half of 95 off) vs. the entire 70s AND 80s.
 
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That stacked deck underdog shit tired. Only two finals where absolutely nobody was picking them to win. 07 and 18.

There is a lot of revisionist history especially on the 2017 finals. Yes, the warriors were the fav. But people was picking the cavs going in as well. That was the playoff run where they went 12-1 to the finals. And the Warriors were “lucky” to be there because Zaza injured Kawhi. Even after the series started when Cleveland blew GS out in game 4. And remember game 3 was close af, the KD clutch bucket game. A bunch of people was saying how GS had a 3-1 lead again. And Dubs and KD separately blew 3-1 leads the year prior, why not now. Cavs figured them out, etc.

You don’t get passes for shit like that man. It’s okay to lose underdog or not. 07 and 18 the only years he didn’t have enough to win.
 
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