The 2020 Presidential Election Thread: Joe Biden is the 46th President of the United States
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Disanthrope
Inconvenient truth + Necessary evil
Imagine if the "diverse" candidate was on the reparations bandwagon, maybe he would've gotten more support.. oh well
Next to do what?
Peace_79
Black Excellence
I didn’t say there wouldn’t be rich and poor. That is a straw man argument, fam.
I said reduce income inequality. Income inequality is at it highest level since the Guilded age. Of course it can be reduced. It is literally just a matter of policy and the political will to enact it.
Why can’t it be done?
Peace_79
Black Excellence
If you start out saying you just want to move rocks - then you ain’t going to get shit done.
Let me ask you this - why do we expect that nothing will change and that democracy can’t work for us. Is that a system we should blindly accept?
bluntedsultan
Locked and Loaded
Correction
I dont expect that. Im just not into playing this game of being all the way in on one side.
We’ve been blindly accepting a lot of shit for years
Peace_79
Black Excellence
It's a lot more complicated than just "reducing income inequality". Most people propose increasing taxes on the rich, higher wages and more jobs. Thing is Corporations will never pay a worker anywhere near what it's executives/owners make. Also the world is a lot bigger and a lot more intertwined than it used to be so the opportunity to make more money as a corporation is greater than ever. Socialism will never work in the way of just dividing fortunes equally because people will never see eye to eye on the work they produce vs others - it's just human nature. Tim will believe he works harder than Benny and therefore deserves a raise. Evan stays later while John does the minimal to keep from being fired and wastes time so the day goes faster. The key is entrepreneurship but the entrepreneurial mindset is so few and far between (rich dad good dad).
Think about this, in ancient Egyptian, ancient Greek texts, people were arguing about income inequality and the rich getting richer. If it didn't change back then it'll never change by now. It's like asking for world peace, there will always be someone who doesn't see eye to eye. It's not even an American thing, this is worldwide.
Check this out, this is the wealth gap around the world:
Regional Income And Wealth Inequality 2022 - Global Finance Magazine
The idea that more wealth for some will translate into more wealth for everyone has deep roots. Today, data shows that the gap between the richest and the poorest has never been wider.www.gfmag.com
You are speaking in generalities, fam.
Again - no one is asking corporations to pay cashiers like Executives. That is a straw man argument. And kind of a ridiculous statement.
But can say - the Wealthiest company in the world pay its employees enough to not need government food stamps? Yeah
Can we rescind $Billions in subsidies to Oil companies - some of the wealthiest companies in the world. Yeah
Can we provide healthcare to our citizens so 500,000 don’t go bankrupt, 40,000 don’t die, and millions more actually have access to healthcare they can actually afford? Yeah
Can we actually have corporations pay their fair share , IE ~ 30% of tax Revenue (like they used to) vs the ~10% they pay now - including some of the richest companies in the world, like Amazon, paying ZERO % or a Negative % Tax rate (my 20 year old brother paid more in taxes last year than Amazon did)
Can we provide a college education and forgive student loans for millions of Americans to start businesses, get better jobs, spend into the economy and grow the GDP? Yeah
Can we provide parental leave like every other developed nation on the planet? Saving tens of thousands of dollars for middle class families Yeah
Can we provide child care for our citizens putting thousands of dollars back into our pockets? Yeah.
Not one of those solutions called for the end of capaitlism or paying “Tim” like an Executive when he wasn’t qualified. It just actually served the PEOPLE of this country whom our democracy is SUPPOSED to represent.
If Corporations feel “inconvenienced” by that.
Ok ... Who cares ?
America is a Democracy not an Oligarchy. They will just have to deal with us acting like it.
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Peace_79
Black Excellence
Honestly not sure what this means.
Peace_79
Black Excellence
Social issues are completely different than economic issues.
As you have already alluded - economic issues have persisted for centuries While social issues will shift over time.
Generally I am for people having rights without infringing on my own.
But I think you are conflating two different topics.
If we progress on more equality of opportunity in twenty years - great!
I don’t care what anyone classifies me as.
But I fundamentally disagree with the notion that we should welcome historic income inequality and celebrate the disenfranchisement of socio-economic groups simply because “progress is slow” or its “always been that way”
That’s what they said about slavery
That’s what they said about segregation
That’s what they said about Suffrage
Thats what they said about child labor laws
That’s what they said about the 40 hour work week
That’s what they said about Medicare and Medicaid
That’s what they are saying about the Climate Crisis
That’s what they are saying about Income Inequality
You get progress by fighting for it.
Not by waiting for it to walk your way.
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25centsandwich
Member
Thats not evening mentioning all the companies that tried to set up their hq overseas...so instead of getting that 30% of tax revenue we get 0 and some european country that has 1/25th of the consumer base as the US gets the 10 or 15% of that corporate tax. Now i dont agree with trump just completely gutting it...there should be some additional cost to doing business in america. But you got to make it competitive
Same premise with a wealth tax when billionaires can and will liquidate their assets in all types of ways in which it cant be taxed...
Now i think higher taxes on the rich, particularly income and a small wealth and capital gains tax is part of the solution but you are right its only part...
We definitely need to strengthen unions again. Ubi is interesting. But i also think we need a robust job training or retraining program. That way, if you get a degree in like music theory or some shit like that your not completely fucked
Peace_79
Black Excellence
For me it’s not about the average consumer “wanting more”. That will never change.
it is about getting the boot off people’s necks so that they can get above water and take care of basic living expenses.
That level of income is not a function of “want”, it is a function of inflation and the general cost of living.
It is not a dynamic equation that disregards inputs on either side. It is a relative constant for this time period that we are woefully beneath.
You also mention corporations being able to make more money and make it over seas. First of all, not all corporations are multi national. Secondly, you ignore the fact that thousands of corporations don’t pay domestic taxes. Regardless of how much multinational corporations make over sees, that is Trillions of dollars we get back.
Where does it go?
into the hands of everyday Americans. A trickle up economy. That is how you start to get equality of opportunity.
You believe I am saying that everyone should be rich. I am not. I am saying that everyone should have closer to an equal opportunity.
Saying it is impossible is an excuse for never trying.
it’s great to talk Academically. But this Actually makes a difference to the single mom whose child doesn’t have to die because they can’t afford healthcare and whose second child can go to college because it is covered and who gets paid a more competitive wage to live their life.
If she chooses to squander it. That’s her decision. But these are objective things that make her life better and provide more opportunity.
it is about getting the boot off people’s necks so that they can get above water and take care of basic living expenses.
That level of income is not a function of “want”, it is a function of inflation and the general cost of living.
It is not a dynamic equation that disregards inputs on either side. It is a relative constant for this time period that we are woefully beneath.
You also mention corporations being able to make more money and make it over seas. First of all, not all corporations are multi national. Secondly, you ignore the fact that thousands of corporations don’t pay domestic taxes. Regardless of how much multinational corporations make over sees, that is Trillions of dollars we get back.
Where does it go?
into the hands of everyday Americans. A trickle up economy. That is how you start to get equality of opportunity.
You believe I am saying that everyone should be rich. I am not. I am saying that everyone should have closer to an equal opportunity.
Saying it is impossible is an excuse for never trying.
it’s great to talk Academically. But this Actually makes a difference to the single mom whose child doesn’t have to die because they can’t afford healthcare and whose second child can go to college because it is covered and who gets paid a more competitive wage to live their life.
If she chooses to squander it. That’s her decision. But these are objective things that make her life better and provide more opportunity.
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Peace_79
Black Excellence
@Sion your argument is basically -
“The poor and middle class will always be more greedy than the money they earn so why bother improving their lives”
Three points to rebut that
- The Middle Class in America used to thrive (I know it was before a global economy) so it is not empirically true that it cannot happen
- Why do you assume all the poor and middle class in America are “greedy”? Have you ever considered that some people just want a simple meaningful life where they don’t have to struggle?
- Why do we have so much socialism for the rich by our government. They privatize the gains and socialize the losses. If your logic follows - it will “never be enough” for them. So why do we keep doing it? Why should we continue - especially at the expense of everyone else in our country.
“The poor and middle class will always be more greedy than the money they earn so why bother improving their lives”
Three points to rebut that
- The Middle Class in America used to thrive (I know it was before a global economy) so it is not empirically true that it cannot happen
- Why do you assume all the poor and middle class in America are “greedy”? Have you ever considered that some people just want a simple meaningful life where they don’t have to struggle?
- Why do we have so much socialism for the rich by our government. They privatize the gains and socialize the losses. If your logic follows - it will “never be enough” for them. So why do we keep doing it? Why should we continue - especially at the expense of everyone else in our country.
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SeaSnake
OG
The nigga literally said don’t do shit because nothing will change and we have the same issues since ancient times lol like damn.
Corporations are not people making them more responsible is not a bad thing. Yes they can just move a go play the same game for n other countries and do the same shit.
Peace_79
Black Excellence
They won’t move.
They’ll just keep making obscene profits that are slightly less than before while being butt hurt for a few years.
Zero Fucks Given.
America has the greatest economy in the world with the greatest consumer base in the world.
Also think of how much capital and infrastructure companies have invested into America.
In some cases millions of dollars - marketing apparatus, employees, buildings, utilities, equipment, factories etc
So now they are going to sink ALL of that cost to spend millions to move operations to another country, learn their language, learn their culture, learn their demographics, learn their markets, start from nothing and have to compete with existing brands there ...
All to operate in an objectively inferior environment so that they can go through all of that and end up making LESS goddamn money ... AND still have to pay similar tax rates anyway???
Just to stick it to the US government ... because the people that have made that corporation successful in the first damn place actually want something back for the Trillions of dollars they pay in taxes.
Go ahead and slice of your nose to spite your face. Be my guest.
Its a fucking preposterous proposition. And the only reason the corporate media says this is to scare people to vote against their best interests.
And unfortunately, it has worked for generations.
They’ll just keep making obscene profits that are slightly less than before while being butt hurt for a few years.
Zero Fucks Given.
America has the greatest economy in the world with the greatest consumer base in the world.
Also think of how much capital and infrastructure companies have invested into America.
In some cases millions of dollars - marketing apparatus, employees, buildings, utilities, equipment, factories etc
So now they are going to sink ALL of that cost to spend millions to move operations to another country, learn their language, learn their culture, learn their demographics, learn their markets, start from nothing and have to compete with existing brands there ...
All to operate in an objectively inferior environment so that they can go through all of that and end up making LESS goddamn money ... AND still have to pay similar tax rates anyway???
Just to stick it to the US government ... because the people that have made that corporation successful in the first damn place actually want something back for the Trillions of dollars they pay in taxes.
Go ahead and slice of your nose to spite your face. Be my guest.
Its a fucking preposterous proposition. And the only reason the corporate media says this is to scare people to vote against their best interests.
And unfortunately, it has worked for generations.
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Blue_London
OG
100% this having the same issue in the UK all the candidates are moving to the centre and are basically conservative
StringerBell
OG
25centsandwich
Member
Fact of the matter is that until we close loopholes and tax breaks for these coporations the tax rate is doesnt matter. You dont want to make the corporatr tax rate so prohibitive that the end result is that tax being passed to the consumer or labor. Many multinational corporations were becoming multinational corporations to avoid the corporate tax rate here. Hell even Canada has a corporate tax rate that was MUCH lower than what we had and they are able to do universal health care, paid maternity leave, etc.
Fact of the matter is that many of those programs are going to be funded by us no matter what. Bernie came out and pretty much said that hes going to increase taxes on everybody to pay for medicare for all. Free college tuition is something that they say will be paid for by the wealthy but it practicality will eventually be passed to us as well.
No wonder those things arent as popular as they should be.
Dont get me wrong i believe the wealthy, wall street and corporations should be taxed much more than they are now but again its a small part of the equation and overtaxation can be a bad thing...especially when companies are looking more and more automation.
What we need to be doing is lowering the cost of tuition, pharmeceuticals, health care administration, housing etc. That along with government assistance from the wealthy taking on a bigger tax burden can get us to a place where more money is going into our pockets to stimulate the economy. Trickle up and trickle down economics are both bullshit. What works time and time again is a vibrant and productive middle class with disposable income.
Peace_79
Black Excellence
You make a few broad stroke generalizations without offering any stategies or tactics.
Of course we want a vibrant and productive middle class.
The question is HOW DO WE GET THERE.
I say put more money in the hands of the people and let them innovate, le them thrive, let them start businesses, let them spend into the economy.
You say that’s “bullshit”. I’ll ask you to explain why you think that is the case.
How can you say that taxing multinational corporation‘s is a “small part of the problem”?
You do know that during the most prosperous time American history the tax rate average around 90% for the wealthy?
Corporations now pay 10% of the share in Tax Revenue while production is at historic heights. Who drives that production - American workers.
Yet Wages have been stagnant for 40 years
Corporations used to pay 30% of tax Revenue.
THIRTY PERCENT.
You call 20% difference in tax revenue, Trillions of Dollars, a “small part of the equation”???
Help me understand that logic ...
“Corporations won’t like this”
“Corporations won’t like that”
You seem to operate from the position that corporations are omnipotent. This is not the case. They are literally constructs of the government and only exist because of the people who voluntary compensate them. They were actually invented to serve the best interests of the people not their share holders.
Legislation can be structured in such a way that disallows corporations to pass all costs down to consumers or refuse pay a living wage. As we transition to an age of automation; again it is the job of a representative government to architect solutions and mechanisms to preserve the well being of the people it serves.
This hasn’t been the case NOT because, it is inherently impossible. It is not the case because coronations have bought our government; in effect transforming our democracy into an Oligarchy.
No deal ... Fuck that.
A Democracy is supposed to work for the people not a handful of Billionaires.
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Peace_79
Black Excellence
You mentioned several things that I agree that we need.
“What we need to be doing is lowering the cost of tuition, pharmeceuticals, health care administration, housing etc. That along with government assistance from the wealthy taking on a bigger tax burden can get us to a place where more money is going into our pockets to stimulate the economy.”
All those programs take funding - Including from corporations; and they take appropriate Legislation. Yet you appear to reject this premise.
How, then, do you propose the achieve your stated goals without the massive revenue earned from corporations to pay their fair share in taxes ( due to the mythical fear of ‘over taxation’ ); and without an aggressive progressive policy mandate ie - with a lukewarm moderate political agenda?
“What we need to be doing is lowering the cost of tuition, pharmeceuticals, health care administration, housing etc. That along with government assistance from the wealthy taking on a bigger tax burden can get us to a place where more money is going into our pockets to stimulate the economy.”
All those programs take funding - Including from corporations; and they take appropriate Legislation. Yet you appear to reject this premise.
How, then, do you propose the achieve your stated goals without the massive revenue earned from corporations to pay their fair share in taxes ( due to the mythical fear of ‘over taxation’ ); and without an aggressive progressive policy mandate ie - with a lukewarm moderate political agenda?
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