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COMMUNITY The Official 2024 Presidential Election Thread

Added to Calendar: 11-05-24

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Stiff said:
I understand your point, I just fundamentally disagree with it.

I grant you a 12 billion dollar shopping spree with my arms manufacturers and tell you, “do whatever you want to ‘defend yourself’ but we won’t allow you to drop 2,000 lb bombs”.

If you turn around and say okay cool, I’ll take that same 12 billion and buy four times the amount of 500lb bombs and just drop 4x the number of bombs, technically yes I “changed the way you conducted the war”. But ultimately the same tonnage of munitions got dropped on the densely populated Gaza area. In my view, this is no different than if Trump had been in office and had hypothetically signed off on 2,000 lb bombs. That’s not “applying pressure”.. it’s managing optics. Now I get to say “welp I put my foot down and told them not to drop 2,000 lb bombs and they didn’t”.

I don’t think Trump would’ve bothered to manage the optics but the same tonnage of munitions would’ve been used on the same square footage. Same evil.

In regards to your point regarding the expulsion of Gazans to Egypt, I find it unlikely that any U.S president (even Trump), or the rest of NATO, or the regional accomplices such as Saudi Arabia and Jordan, would’ve stood by and agreed for Israel to go through with such a destabilizing act that would have such global economic impact.

Israel didn’t refrain from pushing Gazans to Egypt because of any pressure from Biden—they refrained because it would’ve led to the collapse of the Egyptian economy and ultimately government. The ensuing power vacuum would’ve led to the area being a haven for the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas to stage all manner of offensive campaigns on Israel and would’ve threatened all shipping traffic through the Suez Canal at a time when the Houthi’s blockade of the Red Sea already caused Israel’s southern most port into bankruptcy. It would’ve been contrary to Israel’s own security interests. Biden had nothing to do with it not happening becaus if you’re going to support and run diplomatic cover for a genocide, you’re not going to draw a line at ethnic cleansing.
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lol. b, you can't be serious. dropping 4 500lbs bombs is NOT the same as dropping one 2000lbs bomb. It don't work like that. The damage (including civilian casualties) of each of the 4 bombs simply don't magically 'add up' to the damage of a single 2000lb bomb.

Let me add that this is just one way that Biden admin pressure has affected the conduct of the war. There are others. And Trump wouldn't have said shit.

Regarding Egypt, you don't understand Israel. The opportunity to ethnically cleanse Gaza may not come again for generations. There is no way at all those considerations would dissuade Netanyahu and co from doing it if they could get away with it.

This is why they've only temporarily put the idea aside. It may be why Netanyahu doesn't want the war to end. If Trump gets elected, and the war is still going, they will try again.
 
ChicagoFigure said:
Eh I gotta disagree man

The bar u are claiming is already very low. Gazans will get to return home...when? Where? The place is leveled. They've been attacked by IDF when they tried to get back to their homes in northern Gaza.

ICC already issued arrest warrants for war crimes by netanyahu just as they did for Hamas leaders.

And this whole, they could've got pushed to egypt under trump....that's speculation for one, and secondly, even if it was true, how is it worse that u move a whole population elsewhere vs just killing as many as possible where they're at lol.

There's no lesser evil just different evils.
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It's worse. It's worse to forever be pushed out of your homes after fighting for generations to avoid just that and after losing 10s of thousands of your people at the hands of Israel. How is genocide + ethnic cleansing not worse than genocide alone?
 
Gray Matter said:
lol. b, you can't be serious. dropping 4 500lbs bombs is NOT the same as dropping one 2000lbs bomb. It don't work like that. The damage (including civilian casualties) of each of the 4 bombs simply don't magically 'add up' to the damage of a single 2000lb bomb.

Let me add that this is just one way that Biden admin pressure has affected the conduct of the war. There are others. And Trump wouldn't have said shit.

Regarding Egypt, you don't understand Israel. The opportunity to ethnically cleanse Gaza may not come again for generations. There is no way at all those considerations would dissuade Netanyahu and co from doing it if they could get away with it.

This is why they've only temporarily put the idea aside. It may be why Netanyahu doesn't want the war to end. If Trump gets elected, and the war is still going, they will try again.
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lol, I’m not gonna sit here and pretend to be a physics expert but I’ll say this: Israel destroyed every single hospital,college, school, and nearly every single mosque in Gaza. To say “at least they didn’t use 2000 lb bombs to do it” ain’t saying much.

The “pressure” that you’re alluding to that is allegedly happening behind the scenes is something that you’re taking entirely at face value based on what the Biden admin has been putting out.

We can speculate all day but there’s no indication that I’ve seen that says Biden would’ve had any red lines that the Israelis would’ve respected in regards to mass expulsion of the Gaza population. What we actually saw from this administration was unconditional support for the genocide, and diplomatic cover at the UN.

The Israelis refrained because it wouldn’t have been in their security interest to turn Egypt to a failed state and launching pad for Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.
 
Stiff said:
lol, I’m not gonna sit here and pretend to be a physics expert but I’ll say this: Israel destroyed every single hospital,college, school, and nearly every single mosque in Gaza. To say “at least they didn’t use 2000 lb bombs to do it” ain’t saying much.

The “pressure” that you’re alluding to that is allegedly happening behind the scenes is something that you’re taking entirely at face value based on what the Biden admin has been putting out.

We can speculate all day but there’s no indication that I’ve seen that says Biden would’ve had any red lines that the Israelis would’ve respected in regards to mass expulsion of the Gaza population. What we actually saw from this administration was unconditional support for the genocide, and diplomatic cover at the UN.

The Israelis refrained because it wouldn’t have been in their security interest to turn Egypt to a failed state and launching pad for Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.
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You're not thinking about it the right way.

We are primarily interested in deaths. So the issue is survivability. The survivability of a 2000lb bomb is much, much higher than the survivability of a 500lb bomb. And if you launch 4 500lb bombs at different times (and, possibly, places), it's still much higher.
 
Gray Matter said:
It's worse. It's worse to forever be pushed out of your homes after fighting for generations to avoid just that and after losing 10s of thousands of your people at the hands of Israel. How is genocide + ethnic cleansing not worse than genocide alone?
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By default, not having people moved out of there in your hypothetical leads to more deaths

This argument that they're better off being contained during a genocide is not quite the best defense for the current administration lol.
 
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