Muhammad Ali vs Mike Tyson

[SKPJR]

Going the distance and losing the fight of the century to Joe Fraziet on points>>>>>>>>>>>knocking out a bum like Carl Williams in the 1st.

Going the distance and losing to Frazier got Ali ready for Foreman. Dropping Williams in 93 seconds got Tyson ready for Douglas. Ali trained harder after the first Frazier fight and eventually took the belt from the man who took it from Frazier. Tyson stopped training after the Williams fight and got dismantled by Buster Douglas 6 months later. These are all indisputable facts.

 

[5 Grand]

@SKPJR you're making solid points.

Tyson did fall off before he turned 25 years old, but he was a beast at 20.

Give me a 20 year old Tyson trained by Kevin Rooney and I'm not sure if Ali could go the distance.

 

[Water Ur Seeds]

Mike is that guy, but Ali would of prolly totally fckd with Mikes head before the fight, frustrated Mike during the fight and then Mike would of prolly gotten himself DQ'd...

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Man yall got to stop with the excuses. If Tyson was as great as yall claim he was he wouldn't need any. Miss me with that shit. I'm tired of hearing it.

I hate the way people act like shit just happens magically. Everything has a reason whether you want to believe it or not. Reasons aren't excuses. Tyson was a drugged out, bipolar, reckless person that lost Cus and Rooney, the only two people that kept him grounded, at the height of his career. It's simpleminded to try and boil that down to just being "excuses." Nobody is saying Tyson was an infallible god. We say he was a great boxer. That doesn't mean that he would automatically be able to overcome that extra shit. The man went to jail for three years, came out, and became champion again, and ya'll are acting like he was a bum. How many people have done something like that? Someone mentioned Ali leaving and coming back. Ok, fair example. Was Ali not a great boxer? How come you dudes are so resistant to give Tyson the same credit?

 

[Lucas]

Ali beats Tyson and I love Tyson. Ali was just mentally so much tougher and when the going gets tough, the tough gets going. Ali would box and frustrate Tyson. Take his best shot, talk to Tyson and break him down both mentally and physically.

 

[SKPJR]

I love Tyson. I'm a child of the 80s and I came of age during the Tyson era. For a very very very short period of time Mike was the baddest man on the planet. But the truth is he feasted on inferior talent, bullied weaker opponents and he never grew beyond an early round knock out artist. And that doesn't even include all of the bullshit he had going on outside of the ring.

Like I said I loved Tyson like everyone else who was around back then did. But the fact of the matter is that Mike Tyson squandered and wasted more talent than damn near any other athlete you can name. He was an unstoppable and indestructible champion at 20 but for all intents and purposes his career was basically over at 23 when he lost to Buster Douglas. Tyson was 37-0 coming into the Douglas fight and 13-6 afterwards. He basically lost one of every three fights for the rest of his career. There is absolutely nothing great about that.

As much as we all loved what Mike could have and should have been this revisionist history bullshit has to stop. Mike's prime lasted for three short years and his career was irreparably damaged and pretty much over by his 23rd birthday. Mike Tyson and Mike Tyson alone is solely responsible for this epic waste of talent. He was great for a very short period of time but those 3 great years pale in comparison to everything that followed. And to compare Tyson's career to the greatest fighter and one of the greatest human beings ever is the height of ignorance and disrespect.

 

[SKPJR]

Holyfield dominated Tyson twice in the mid 90s and if the so called "prime" Tyson would have gotten past Douglas in '90 Holyfied would have dusted his ass in '91.

Evander is one of the most underrated fighters ever. Dude was a 4 time champion and he beat some great fighters. His fights against Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe were epic. His fights against Tyson were not. Everybody talks about Tyson but he was the weakest opponent that Holyfield faced. Evander had a more difficult time with Micheal Moore, old ass George Foreman and flabby and sick Larry Holmes than he did with Tyson. Mike Tyson was an after thought on Holyfield's resume. Outside of the none boxing related controversy Iron Mike was irrelevant after 1990.

 

[5 Grand]

@SKPJR I understand the point you're trying to make; Tyson fell off because his head wasn't on straight and when his inner circle changed it was the beginning of the end. But take a look at Muhammad Ali's first year and compare his fights to Mike Tyson's first year. They both fought bums that nobody had ever heard of, but Tyson was knocking the bums out in the first round while Ali only had 1 first round knock out in his first year.






The question isn't, Could a 30 year old Tyson beat a 30 year old Ali? The question is; could a 21 year old Tyson beat a 21 year old Ali. Because Tyson was in his prime in his early 20s. Nobody is saying Tyson was the GOAT during the 90s. That's like using the Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick fights to discredit Ali when those fights were obviously past his prime.

As far as Tyson's opponents, Mike Spinx and Trevor Berbick were legitimate champions that could have held the title (briefly) in the 1970s.

 

[SKPJR]

Smh at you thinking knocking a bum out in the 1st round makes you a great fighter. If that was the case Butterbean would be the fucking goat.

Ali dominated all aspects of his craft and that began by honing all of his talents early on in his career. You forget that Ali won Olympic gold by the time he was 18. He began his pro career as a champion and he approached his pro career early on like a professional. He used those early fights to master his craft. He could have knocked all of those no names out early but that wasn't his aim. He used all of those guys to improve different aspects of his game. That strategy paid off when he totally outclassed the Mike Tyson of the 60s in Sonny Liston. Ali was a complete fighter by the time he got to Liston and not only did he knock his ass out twice but he outclassed him both times at the tender age of 22. That wouldn't have happened if he would've spent his formative years being a headhunter.

Claiming Tyson was better than Ali b/c he knocked a lot bums out in the 1st is like saying Shawn Kemp was better than Jordan b/c he dunked on a lot scrubs and posterized a bunch of no names. Jordan could dunk to but he had a totaly complete all around game to go with those dunks. Shawn Kemp didnt.

Ali could knock people out but he had a complete and total game to go with those knockouts. Tyson didnt. If Tyson couldnt knock you out early he would get frustrated and he didn't have the discipline to stick with a game plan and consistently out box an equal opponent or take a quality fighter the distance and win on points. He never developed any of those skills b/c he spent his formative years knocking bums out in the 1st. This is reason 624,811 that Ali would have beat the brakes off Tyson.

It is disrespectful to the goat to continue having this ridiculous discussion. Mike had a great three year run. Ali dominated the greatest era of heavyweight boxing for a decade and a half. Case closed

 

[1/2]

@SKPJR I understand the point you're trying to make; Tyson fell off because his head wasn't on straight and when his inner circle changed it was the beginning of the end. But take a look at Muhammad Ali's first year and compare his fights to Mike Tyson's first year. They both fought bums that nobody had ever heard of, but Tyson was knocking the bums out in the first round while Ali only had 1 first round knock out in his first year.



View attachment 132130


The question isn't, Could a 30 year old Tyson beat a 30 year old Ali? The question is; could a 21 year old Tyson beat a 21 year old Ali. Because Tyson was in his prime in his early 20s. Nobody is saying Tyson was the GOAT during the 90s. That's like using the Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick fights to discredit Ali when those fights were obviously past his prime.

As far as Tyson's opponents, Mike Spinx and Trevor Berbick were legitimate champions that could have held the title (briefly) in the 1970s.

lmao at that rap sheet

ay they all got heart for even stepping in the ring with him after seeing that

I cant get into any deep reasoning about the two, but I do think young Tyson would have hurt young Ali like anybody else

 

[5 Grand]

It's interesting to note that Tyson lost all of his fights by knockout except for the Holyfield2 fight and Ali lost all of his fights by decision except for the Larry Holmes TKO.

• Tyson doesn't lose by decision
• Ali doesn't lose by knockout

If the fight goes the distance Tyson wins because Tyson has never lost a decision.

If the fight doesn't go the distance Ali wins by knockout because Ali doesn't get knocked out.

 

[5 Grand]

Also, as far as the Sonny Liston vs Mike Tyson comparison - there is none.


While Liston's first professional fight was a first round KO, and he beat Floyd Patterson twice by a first round KO, when Liston fought Cassius Clay he was 35-1, 24 by KO, 7 in the first round.


Liston's record going into the Clay(1) fight 35-1, 24 by KO, 7 in the first round.
Tyson's record going into the Berbick fight 27-0, 25 by knockout, 14 in the first round.

Tyson had more knockouts in less fights, and twice as many first round KO's as Liston.


My point is that Muhammad Ali beating Sonny Liston has nothing to do with Mike Tyson. Tyson was much more destructive than Liston by virtue of the fact that he had twice as many first round KOs in less fights.


If you're going to say that Muhammad Ali can beat Mike Tyson, you need a better reason than, "well he beat Sonny Liston".

Edit.

I just watched the Liston vs Patterson fight. Liston wedged in @ 215LBs, Patterson was 189LBS. Floyd Patterson wasn't even a heavyweight when he fought Liston.

 

[Duwop]

the best fights to compare them at that age....21.....is Cooper and Spinks...

Ali first championship fight was against Liston...Ali had no championship fights before he fought Liston, so at 21 he wasn't even a champ yet.....

but right before Liston...when he was 21......he got knocked down by Cooper

and not just knocked down......Ali was out on his feet, that new glove shit was bullshit.........gave him time to recover





When Tyson fought Spinks at 21....on what many people consider Tyson at his best..Tyson was on his 7th championship fight

Tyson would have killed Ali,... they weren't even close in talent at that age....


look at the left hook cooper knocked him down with...and tell me Tyson wouldn't kill him...


niggz literally remebeinrg withtheir hearts and not reality.. ALi's best weapon was his mouth.. but in the ring Tyson was simply better.....

After the Spinks fight, when Tyson was 22, they fired his corner and Don king destroyed that man's work regime...

say what you want about anything that happened after that...

the facts are that at 21 when tyson beat spinks, he as undefeated, and he had his original trainer..

tyson at 22 lost all his trainers, and was on a clear decline even before the buster douglas fight....

nigga was partying, snorting coke, and not even training for fights....

that's the tyson everyone remembers...


but tyson at 21, no drugs in his system..., still training for fights with rooney in his corner
is better than the 21 year old ALi who cheated against Henry cooper,

I'd go as far as to say, If 21 year old Tyson on his 7th championship fight was the man that 22 year ALI with no championship experience had to fight instead of liston..... 21 Tyson puts 22 Ali down multiple times

 

[5 Grand]

the best fights to compare them at that age....21.....is Cooper and Spinks...

Ali first championship fight was against Liston...Ali had no championship fights before he fought Liston, so at 21 he wasn't even a champ yet.....

but right before Liston...when he was 21......he got knocked down by Cooper

and not just knocked down......Ali was out on his feet, that new glove shit was bullshit.........gave him time to recover





When Tyson fought Spinks at 21....on what many people consider Tyson at his best..Tyson was on his 7th championship fight

Tyson would have killed Ali,... they weren't even close in talent at that age....


look at the left hook cooper knocked him down with...and tell me Tyson wouldn't kill him...


niggz literally remebeinrg withtheir hearts and not reality.. ALi's best weapon was his mouth.. but in the ring Tyson was simply better.....

After the Spinks fight, when Tyson was 22, they fired his corner and Don king destroyed that man's work regime...

say what you want about anything that happened after that...

the facts are that at 21 when tyson beat spinks, he as undefeated, and he had his original trainer..

tyson at 22 lost all his trainers, and was on a clear decline even before the buster douglas fight....

nigga was partying, snorting coke, and not even training for fights....

that's the tyson everyone remembers...


but tyson at 21, no drugs in his system..., still training for fights with rooney in his corner
is better than the 21 year old ALi who cheated against Henry cooper,

I'd go as far as to say, If 21 year old Tyson on his 7th championship fight was the man that 22 year ALI with no championship experience had to fight instead of liston..... 21 Tyson puts 22 Ali down multiple times

I agree with 99% of what you posted, the only thing is Muhammad Ali never got knocked out.

 

[Duwop]

Dundee hit Ali with smelling salts ,which is illegal
And ripped his glove to get new gloves, which is illegal

That nigga was knocked out, and Dundee cheated like fuck

 

[Playmaker88]

im not a debater ill just keep it brief and say this rope its just as simple as saying Ali was high character unquestionable greatness and he would get in mikes head.. He got into Frazier head and got his shit broke and suffered a Pyrrhic victory in the last bout with Frazier.. Over simplifying tysons attributes and boxing acumen is folly.. Ali was defensively irresponsible he is not going to make tyson miss for 8 rounds.

two people are throwing punches in this hypothetical matchup lets not forget that.

 

[SKPJR]

It's interesting to note that Tyson lost all of his fights by knockout except for the Holyfield2 fight and Ali lost all of his fights by decision except for the Larry Holmes TKO.

• Tyson doesn't lose by decision
• Ali doesn't lose by knockout

If the fight goes the distance Tyson wins because Tyson has never lost a decision.

If the fight doesn't go the distance Ali wins by knockout because Ali doesn't get knocked out.

Tyson lacks the discipline to go the distance against Ali. Ali was an absolute taction, too smart and too good of a boxer for Tyson.

 

[SKPJR]

the best fights to compare them at that age....21.....is Cooper and Spinks...

Ali first championship fight was against Liston...Ali had no championship fights before he fought Liston, so at 21 he wasn't even a champ yet.....

but right before Liston...when he was 21......he got knocked down by Cooper

and not just knocked down......Ali was out on his feet, that new glove shit was bullshit.........gave him time to recover





When Tyson fought Spinks at 21....on what many people consider Tyson at his best..Tyson was on his 7th championship fight

Tyson would have killed Ali,... they weren't even close in talent at that age....


look at the left hook cooper knocked him down with...and tell me Tyson wouldn't kill him...


niggz literally remebeinrg withtheir hearts and not reality.. ALi's best weapon was his mouth.. but in the ring Tyson was simply better.....

After the Spinks fight, when Tyson was 22, they fired his corner and Don king destroyed that man's work regime...

say what you want about anything that happened after that...

the facts are that at 21 when tyson beat spinks, he as undefeated, and he had his original trainer..

tyson at 22 lost all his trainers, and was on a clear decline even before the buster douglas fight....

nigga was partying, snorting coke, and not even training for fights....

that's the tyson everyone remembers...


but tyson at 21, no drugs in his system..., still training for fights with rooney in his corner
is better than the 21 year old ALi who cheated against Henry cooper,

I'd go as far as to say, If 21 year old Tyson on his 7th championship fight was the man that 22 year ALI with no championship experience had to fight instead of liston..... 21 Tyson puts 22 Ali down multiple times

Please stop with the excuses. I lost count how many people y'all have blamed and how many different variations of the same excuses y'all have used to justify Tyson falling off and destroying his career by 23. Y'all have more excuses for Mike than he has for himself. Notice how no one has made a single excuse for Ali yet. Keep that in mind the next tine you blame Don King, Robin Givens, Kevin Rooney, Paublo Escobar or whoever the fuck else y'all decide to blame next. The simple fact remains that if Tyson was as great as y'all claim he was he wouldn't need any excuses. Ali doesn't. Miss me with the bullshit.

 

[Mister]

Tyson lacks the discipline to go the distance against Ali. Ali was an absolute taction, too smart and too good of a boxer for Tyson.

An absolute what?

THIW.

 

[5 Grand]

Please stop with the excuses. I lost count how many people y'all have blamed and how many different variations of the same excuses y'all have used to justify Tyson falling off and destroying his career by 23. Y'all have more excuses for Mike than he has for himself. Notice how no one has made a single excuse for Ali yet. Keep that in mind the next tine you blame Don King, Robin Givens, Kevin Rooney, Paublo Escobar or whoever the fuck else y'all decide to blame next. The simple fact remains that if Tyson was as great as y'all claim he was he wouldn't need any excuses. Ali doesn't. Miss me with the bullshit.

We all agree that Tyson started to fall off at 23 years old.

The question is, could a 21 year old Muhammad Ali beat a 21 year old Mike Tyson?

Losing to Evander Holyfield twice in his 30s has nothing to do with this conversation