Just an observation

[Duwop]

I almost didn't make this thread, cuz I know what it's going to turn into.

Like I'm 100% sure what it's going turn into. But I still am going to try to make my point before it gets hijacked by religion haters.


Basically my point is that I contribute the decline in mortality of society to the rising disbelief and ultimately fear in hell.

This is not a opinion on whether it's a good or bad thing. I understand that a lot of people have issues with religion due to how people use it to lie, manipulate, and control..... However the masses.... As in most people..... Most people need to have consequences to keep themselves in check.

A lot of people are not good people. They just don't wanna go to jail. And they don't wanna go to hell.

But if they feel like they won't go to jail for something or they are smart enough to avoid punishment.... There is no other check other than if they BELIEVE in hell.

And I feel like the last 20-30 years less people believe hell is a place. And 20-30 years from now, even less people will believe in it. And when your remove that kinda ultimate consequence.... You will see people gradually lose their sense of mortality.

Good vs evil is not a conversation. It's what you want to do and what you feel you can get away with. People don't care if they SHOULD do something, they just know that they can, and there's no consequence if they do.

Again not saying it's good or bad thing.... But it's definitely a thing.

Fear motivates a lot of people to be good people. No fear, no good

 

[Mister B. M. Ed.]

The fear of going to Hell has been a staple in Christianity almost from its outset. A lot of "true believers" don't want to go to Heaven to be in 'God's Eternal Embrace' and 'Life Everlasting'....they fear the alternative. That to me, doesn't speak on true devotion, but rather fear-based servitude.

I just no longer find it feasible that Hell is a place where it's solely reserved for non-believers, no matter how good or bad their lives have been. if Hell is indeed a real destination, and doesn't hold people that were "believers" but deliberately broke God's laws (especially those of rape and murder), of what use was the law? Are you telling me that killers, rapists, and the like who may have have a late-life conversion while in prison or Death Row could actually get into Heaven, while someone who lived their life as best they could for their fellow man but didn't subscribe to religious indoctrination gets the ultimate sentence? Doesn't make sense, or seem fair in the slightest.

When people start putting all this together, Hell doesn't hold that stigma it once did to people on Earth.

 

[Inori]

subs. will circle back to this later

 

[Duwop]

The fear of going to Hell has been a staple in Christianity almost from its outset. A lot of "true believers" don't want to go to Heaven to be in 'God's Eternal Embrace' and 'Life Everlasting'....they fear the alternative. That to me, doesn't speak on true devotion, but rather fear-based servitude.

I just no longer find it feasible that Hell is a place where it's solely reserved for non-believers, no matter how good or bad their lives have been. if Hell is indeed a real destination, and doesn't hold people that were "believers" but deliberately broke God's laws (especially those of rape and murder), of what use was the law? Are you telling me that killers, rapists, and the like who may have have a late-life conversion while in prison or Death Row could actually get into Heaven, while someone who lived their life as best they could for their fellow man but didn't subscribe to religious indoctrination gets the ultimate sentence? Doesn't make sense, or seem fair in the slightest.

When people start putting all this together, Hell doesn't hold that stigma it once did to people on Earth.

Right.....

I was listening to a relatively new preacher in my family the other day. I'm 15 years younger.... But I've always studied and not just the basics...I try to stay pretty rounded. But I've never been a fan of fear preaching.. Trying to scare people into being good just isn't substantial. There's no way to keep people good thru fear... Eventually they will challenge it.

What brought me back to church was the overall philosophy and lessons in love and patience. I was seeking to be a better person for my family. And that was my motivation. I think the only reason a lot of people go to church and choose to worship is because they know they're not good people and they're afraid of hell and think going to church will keep them out.

But because less and less people believe that every day... Numbers are dwindling.

Which sets the stage also for those prosperity preachers... Oh people aren't scared of hell, but they scared to be broke... So let's talk about money.

But the overwhelming effect again... Is no one cares about being a good person, because no one is legit afraid about going to a place many don't even believe in

 

[Mister B. M. Ed.]

Having lived in this type of household (as I've said before, I'm a PK) for much of my young life, I saw it firsthand. Not like my dad said shit like, "If you go out and party past curfew, God's watching, and your ticket to Hell is reserved."

He didn't do any of that, but I'd be lying if I didn't hear "don't abandon Jesus" regularly in my upbringing, which would've worked if not for the outright hypocrisy of not only the pastor of the church i spent the most time in (having been arrested and convicted by the Feds for MASSIVE Embezzlement, having taking church money and having the time of his life in Atlantic City with it), but most of the hypocritical church members I had to spend time with as well, especially those of my age.

Hell simply doesn't scare me anymore. Not after I've spent time teaching truly Special Education children. That's Hell on Earth to me; knowing that there's families that have to live with kids and other family members that have no choice but to live with serious disabilities they didn't do ANYTHING wrong to be born with.

 

[Duwop]

That's another thing.

If you're living in a current hell....

You can really care less....

 

[The Lonious Monk]

I think you can take religion out of this a bit and just talk about fear of consequences.

I do think for a long time the fear of punishment in the afterlife kept some people in-line. Of course, earthly laws play a part too. That said earthly laws only go so far especially in a country like America where we are afforded more freedoms in some other places. I think it is true that people have loosened their morals or in some cases dismissed moral framing as the fear of punishment in the afterlife has decreased.

I think everything revolving around sex is the best example. At one time people might have tried to be more monogamous and less reckless because so much attention was put on the sinfulness of sexual immorality. Now that a lot of that has died away people tend to pretty much do whatever they want, whenever they want, as much as they want.

 

[IceManKamReturns]

I like the congregational and communion aspect from going to church. All the older members give me motivation to continue since theyve been alive on this hellhole of a rock, still leaning and rocking.

Without a viscerally larger deterrent, yeah i could see people generally losing their way. Survival as a biological construct means doing whatever it takes, and uhh lol history has definitely shown that whatever can literally mean whatever. So many atrocities commited, both large and small scale.

From cannibalism and murder to genocide, i don’t think humans cant touch the floor when they’re bottoming out for better or worse

 

[Rubato]

If hell is your primary deterrent then I think that means you don’t really fear the step before that (death)…like you said, not sure if that’s good or bad but it is interesting. Without religion I think we would be more likely to see death itself as the deterrent.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

If hell is your primary deterrent then I think that means you don’t really fear the step before that (death)…like you said, not sure if that’s good or bad but it is interesting. Without religion I think we would be more likely to see death itself as the deterrent.

Well death can't be too much of a deterrent because it's an inevitability for everyone.

Sure, some people that don't believe in a life after death will be extra careful in order to protect their lives. Others will take on the opposite approach and live as wild and recklessly as possible in an attempt to get the most out of what little time they have.

 

[Rubato]

Well death can't be too much of a deterrent because it's an inevitability for everyone.

Sure, some people that don't believe in a life after death will be extra careful in order to protect their lives. Others will take on the opposite approach and live as wild and recklessly as possible in an attempt to get the most out of what little time they have.

An untimely death has long been used as a deterrent, hence the death penalty

I think religion attempts to soften (or even incentivize) that blow under the condition that you’re a “good” person

 

[The Lonious Monk]

An untimely death has long been used as a deterrent, hence the death penalty

I think religion attempts to soften that blow under the condition that you’re a “good” person

But the death penalty has been proven not to actually deter anything.

If a person has one life, and it's is shitty. That person is going to be willing to do things to make it not shitty even if that runs the risk of ending the shitty life prematurely.

However, if that person truly believes there is another life and they may be rewarded for enduring the shittiness of this life in a righteous manner or punished for becoming shitty themselves, they might actually strive to do the former.

 

[IceManKamReturns]

Last time America cared about the Church was Sister Act 2

 

[AZTG]

I almost didn't make this thread, cuz I know what it's going to turn into.

Like I'm 100% sure what it's going turn into. But I still am going to try to make my point before it gets hijacked by religion haters.


Basically my point is that I contribute the decline in mortality of society to the rising disbelief and ultimately fear in hell.

This is not a opinion on whether it's a good or bad thing. I understand that a lot of people have issues with religion due to how people use it to lie, manipulate, and control..... However the masses.... As in most people..... Most people need to have consequences to keep themselves in check.

A lot of people are not good people. They just don't wanna go to jail. And they don't wanna go to hell.

But if they feel like they won't go to jail for something or they are smart enough to avoid punishment.... There is no other check other than if they BELIEVE in hell.

And I feel like the last 20-30 years less people believe hell is a place. And 20-30 years from now, even less people will believe in it. And when your remove that kinda ultimate consequence.... You will see people gradually lose their sense of mortality.

Good vs evil is not a conversation. It's what you want to do and what you feel you can get away with. People don't care if they SHOULD do something, they just know that they can, and there's no consequence if they do.

Again not saying it's good or bad thing.... But it's definitely a thing.

Fear motivates a lot of people to be good people. No fear, no good

I disagree with this. Not cause im a religion hater. But because historically nothing man made has killed more people or slowed down human development more than religion has.

Even today, in modern society, i can pin point most of the negatives thing happening and blame it on religion.

In modern history also, its clear that societies that are the least religious are the best and happiest.

In the 1800s and 1900s, the US was the least religious country, and they succeeded and were the best country to live in.

In the 2000s, religion is tearing the US up, and Europe who is by far less religion is a much better society to live in. And the worst socities? The Middle East and Far East which are dominated by religion.

Again, im not a religion hater at all. I think we can have a nuanced discussion about this, but I think proof is against you.

 

[Duwop]

Killing though is natural. Man always has and always will kill each other.

But there has been a progressive drop in morality. Socially as a whole people care less and less about doing what is right. Things like love, honor, goodness, and kindness are less and less encouraged. And almost ridiculed.

People don't strive to be a good person as much. It's much more open to serving yourself and immediate gratification. Ends justifying the means is much more prevalent.

Even in religious wars... People committed horrendous acts under the belief they would be rewarded in an afterlife. It was an honor to die in battle. They went in there under the belief that they were doing a good thing. And their society saw them as good people. Those who were lucky enough to survive again were often honored and considered good people when war was over. Even as recent as American history, we still have standing monuments of war heroes and these are considered because they were "good" people....

My argument is that the entire concept of "good" is making it's exit as people are no longer concerned with those things.


Like in today's age.... Who would you consider a good person?.. It's really tough to answer that question. Where as in many points in society we (as in humans) always has some sort of an idea of what we considered a good person.

And I think there's a significant correlation between that and the belief that one will enter heaven or hell in the afterlife.

Like man is going to kill. That's an absolute.

But killing under the belief that your soul will be rewarded for dying on the battlefield...has always been considered much more honorable and moral than killing for money.... At least in my opinion

 

[Inori]

@Duwop how are you making the assumption that there has been a drop in morality recently?

Would you concede that maybe morality across the board has remained pretty much the same and that we just have more access to see how fucked up people are across the world now regardless of religion?

 

[Duwop]

@Duwop how are you making the assumption that there has been a drop in morality recently?

Would you concede that maybe morality across the board has remained pretty much the same and that we just have more access to see how fucked up people are across the world now regardless of religion?

It's a vague assumption based on some of the shit I've observed...

And maybe it's because it more well known now due to access to information....

But it just seems that people don't give a shit about being a good person any more. It's just less and less of a concern.

 

[Inori]

It's a vague assumption based on some of the shit I've observed...

And maybe it's because it more well known now due to access to information....

But it just seems that people don't give a shit about being a good person any more. It's just less and less of a concern.

and these are seen/made in day to day life or mostly online? Combination of the two?

I'm of the opinion that theres always been shitty people in the world.. we just see alot more of it now due to the access we have with the internet.

I've never made the connection to religion equating to morality cuz some just like there are some moral and righteous people that are religious.. there are also religious people devoid of all morals and righteousness.. So I cant necessarily make the connection that people moving away from the churches and religion equating to society becoming less moral somehow

 

[Duwop]

and these are seen/made in day to day life or mostly online? Combination of the two?

I'm of the opinion that theres always been shitty people in the world.. we just see alot more of it now due to the access we have with the internet.

I've never made the connection to religion equating to morality cuz some just like there are some moral and righteous people that are religious.. there are also religious people devoid of all morals and righteousness.. So I cant necessarily make the connection that people moving away from the churches and religion equating to society becoming less moral somehow

I think all things will eventually run their course. Religion as a whole week be phased out at some point. And I can't say if that society will be better off for it or worse off..... That much I can't tell...


But I do the consideration of what makes a person good vs bad will be less of a thing when people no longer believe in any sort of reward or punishment in afterlife. Life when that entire concept is gone..... Humanity will be fundamentally different.

I've already seen people try to logic away simple situations where it should be cut n dry. It's crazy how people can excuse away certain things.

 

[Inori]

The afterlife, whether it's eternal paradise or eternal damnation shouldn't be the motivating factor for people not to be pieces of shit in THIS life.

Treat others how you would like to be treated... seems like a pretty straight forward concept but that aint how this world overall operates for the most part.. whether religion is present or not