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Poll Abortion: Pro Life or Pro Choice

To kill or not to kill

  • Total voters
    90
Bow to Royalty said:
And what race would be most impacted by the government not allowing people in poverty to have children?

The eugenics in this is getting strong.
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You're creating the eugenics. That is why my policy can't happen today because racism is still too strong in the U.S. I don't care what race it is though; if Black people were to become disproportionate affected by such a policy, then that is not racism, but a reality that should be addressed. You see eugenics, but that is because you aren't separating the issues from the people, which are typically universal when you remove the political rhetoric intended to divide and conquer.
 
BlackRain said:
It hurts your argument because it's not something that's even a truly relevant concern because it's not something people are doing.

Me not being ok with something doesn't mean I wanna restrict somebody's else right to do it. That's where the choice in pro choice comes in. You're so caught up on this extremely minimal amount of late term abortions, which if you did your research you'd know that abortions after a certain time frame are majority once again due to viability and quality of life and not a woman changing her mind in the 7 or 8th month, that you're trying to frame being pro choice or not around that and that's where you're falling short
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Ehhh I see your point, but it's still debatable. The percentage is low, but the number may not be. And what's a high enough number to be relevant is a matter of opinion.

Gun violence is a good example. America is torn on AR-style rifles. They may kill around 400 people/year. America feels we have a school shooting problem. I think since 2000 we average less than 20 deaths per year in school shootings (that's like 0.001% of gun deaths). Is the number of non-medically related abortions of babies after viability significantly lower than those? Are those issues not worth discussing?

So just because they're a low percentage of up the 600,000 - 900,000+ abortions happening in a year, doesn't mean they're not still happening a lot. Even if it's .01% that's still a couple happening everyday.

To make sure I'm hearing you right - you think abortions should be legal, regardless of reason, at any point in the pregnancy no matter how late?
 
Loneshot said:
You're creating the eugenics. That is why my policy can't happen today because racism is still too strong in the U.S. I don't care what race it is though; if Black people were to become disproportionate affected by such a policy, then that is not racism, but a reality that should be addressed. You see eugenics, but that is because you aren't separating the issues from the people, which are typically universal when you remove the political rhetoric intended to divide and conquer.
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You're ignoring America's racist history that has caused an increased amount of poverty in the black community. We can agree America has had racist people and policies preventing black people from succeeding during its history (actions based on race)? Well keeping them poor can have impacts for a very long time. Look at the info below from a study on generational poverty. For example I'm the child of 2 people born in the 50's. Me and my cousins are the 1st generation born after the Civil rights act.

1000005372.jpg

You can't make black people poor because of their race, then attack the poor, and act like racism has nothing to do with black people being disproportionately impacted.
 
Bow to Royalty said:
What's the purpose of calling it a clump of cells besides dehumanizing it, which makes it easier on your conscience to harm it? All people are a clump of cells.
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The purpose of calling it a clump of cells is to accurately describe it. If I legitimately feel like it’s a clump of cells…then why would I describe it as something else, without a reason that I felt was adequate?

I understand that it’s your assumption that the only reason I refer to it as a clump of cells is to make it easier on my conscience.

But you assuming something doesn’t make it true.
 
Bow to Royalty said:
You're ignoring America's racist history that has caused an increased amount of poverty in the black community. We can agree America has had racist people and policies preventing black people from succeeding during its history (actions based on race)? Well keeping them poor can have impacts for a very long time. Look at the info below from a study on generational poverty. For example I'm the child of 2 people born in the 50's. Me and my cousins are the 1st generation born after the Civil rights act.

View attachment 1378376

You can't make black people poor because of their race, then attack the poor, and act like racism has nothing to do with black people being disproportionately impacted.
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You are seeing an argument where there is none. Poverty will always be a possibility, but in America it's a business. You can't convince me that a person living in poverty should not amplify the issue by multiplying.
 
mryounggun said:
The purpose of calling it a clump of cells is to accurately describe it. If I legitimately feel like it’s a clump of cells…then why would I describe it as something else, without a reason that I felt was adequate?

I understand that it’s your assumption that the only reason I refer to it as a clump of cells is to make it easier on my conscience.

But you assuming something doesn’t make it true.
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"A clump of cells" is an accurate description of all people, but I'm pretty confident you stop using that term at some point. When do they grow out of that label?
 
Loneshot said:
You are seeing an argument where there is none. Poverty will always be a possibility, but in America it's a business. You can't convince me that a person living in poverty should not amplify the issue by multiplying.
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You're taking away black people's rights to have children, for a reason that is often the result of institutional racism.

I didn't say they should have kids. I'm saying the government shouldn't be banning them from having kids.
 
Bow to Royalty said:
"A clump of cells" is an accurate description of all people, but I'm pretty confident you stop using that term at some point. When do they grow out of that label?
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Humans are a clump of cells. Humans aren’t JUST a clump of cells.

For me, I’d say once the brain has developed to the point of being a functioning organ, it has ‘grown out of that label’.
 
mryounggun said:
Humans are a clump of cells. Humans aren’t JUST a clump of cells.

For me, I’d say once the brain has developed to the point of being a functioning organ, it has ‘grown out of that label’.
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What part of a human isn't made up of a clump of cells?

OK, understood.

Oh, same question for you. Do you think there should be any laws that put any limitations on when a woman can have an abortion?
 
Bow to Royalty said:
What part of a human isn't made up of a clump of cells?

OK, understood.

Oh, same question for you. Do you think there should be any laws that put any limitations on when a woman can have an abortion?
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Every part of a human is made up of a clump of cells.

Yes, there should be a limit on when a woman can have an abortion, in my opinion.
 
Bow to Royalty said:
Ehhh I see your point, but it's still debatable. The percentage is low, but the number may not be. And what's a high enough number to be relevant is a matter of opinion.

Gun violence is a good example. America is torn on AR-style rifles. They may kill around 400 people/year. America feels we have a school shooting problem. I think since 2000 we average less than 20 deaths per year in school shootings (that's like 0.001% of gun deaths). Is the number of non-medically related abortions of babies after viability significantly lower than those? Are those issues not worth discussing?

So just because they're a low percentage of up the 600,000 - 900,000+ abortions happening in a year, doesn't mean they're not still happening a lot. Even if it's .01% that's still a couple happening everyday.

To make sure I'm hearing you right - you think abortions should be legal, regardless of reason, at any point in the pregnancy no matter how late?
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No I don't think they should be legal regardless of any reason. That's a very open ended and broad question. There may be less than a handful of things that fit that category. That don't mean I want my feelings to be law though. And that's where the choice part of pro choice comes in. My feelings shouldn't dictate someone else's choice.

And if the number isn't significant then no it's not worth discussing. Framing something you admit is extremely minimal as a major part of your argument does more harm than good.
 
BlackRain said:
No I don't think they should be legal regardless of any reason. That's a very open ended and broad question. There may be less than a handful of things that fit that category. That don't mean I want my feelings to be law though. And that's where the choice part of pro choice comes in. My feelings shouldn't dictate someone else's choice.

And if the number isn't significant then no it's not worth discussing. Framing something you admit is extremely minimal as a major part of your argument does more harm than good.
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The way you word things is a little confusing to me. I asked if you think those abortions should be legal, and you said "I don't think they should be legal", but then followed it to with "that don't mean I want my feelings to be law". You saying you don't like it, but think it should be legal?

I'm asking what you think the law should be. Like you're writing it... what is it?

You missed my point. What's a significant number is subjective. Let's say there are 1,000 of those abortions a year. That's well under 1% of abortions, but people may think 1,000 abortions is way too many. Again, school shootings are seen as a big issue. In the past 20 years we've had 300-something school shooting deaths. So in 1 year we'd have 3x the number of late abortions as total school shooting deaths from the past 20 years combined.

1,000 is around quadruple the number of black people killed by the police each year. And that's way less than 1% of black deaths. So was the BLM movement for something insignificant and not worth discussing? No.
 
Bow to Royalty said:
The way you word things is a little confusing to me. I asked if you think those abortions should be legal, and you said "I don't think they should be legal", but then followed it to with "that don't mean I want my feelings to be law". You saying you don't like it, but think it should be legal?

I'm asking what you think the law should be. Like you're writing it... what is it?

You missed my point. What's a significant number is subjective. Let's say there are 1,000 of those abortions a year. That's well under 1% of abortions, but people may think 1,000 abortions is way too many. Again, school shootings are seen as a big issue. In the past 20 years we've had 300-something school shooting deaths. So in 1 year we'd have 3x the number of late abortions as total school shooting deaths from the past 20 years combined.

1,000 is around quadruple the number of black people killed by the police each year. And that's way less than 1% of black deaths. So was the BLM movement for something insignificant and not worth discussing? No.
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You're making too many false equivalencies imo comparing abortions to school shootings

I mean I understand the point you're trying to make, I just think those are apples to oranges
 
AP3.0 said:
You're making too many false equivalencies imo comparing abortions to school shootings

I mean I understand the point you're trying to make, I just think those are apples to oranges
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It's not really apples to oranges, imo, because its innocent lives lost. What I'm saying is a life lost is a life lost, and what's a significant number is subjective.

So what makes 20 kids/year in a school a significan number worth discussing, but 1,000 viable fetuses/year an insignificantly low number not worth discussing?
 
Bow to Royalty said:
It's not really apples to oranges, imo, because its innocent lives lost. What I'm saying is a life lost is a life lost, and what's a significant number is subjective.

So what makes 20 kids/year in a school a significan number worth discussing, but 1,000 viable fetuses/year an insignificantly low number not worth discussing?
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A school shooting only happens when there is a gun involved

There are several reasons why an abortion can happen
 
Bow to Royalty said:
The way you word things is a little confusing to me. I asked if you think those abortions should be legal, and you said "I don't think they should be legal", but then followed it to with "that don't mean I want my feelings to be law". You saying you don't like it, but think it should be legal?

I'm asking what you think the law should be. Like you're writing it... what is it?

You missed my point. What's a significant number is subjective. Let's say there are 1,000 of those abortions a year. That's well under 1% of abortions, but people may think 1,000 abortions is way too many. Again, school shootings are seen as a big issue. In the past 20 years we've had 300-something school shooting deaths. So in 1 year we'd have 3x the number of late abortions as total school shooting deaths from the past 20 years combined.

1,000 is around quadruple the number of black people killed by the police each year. And that's way less than 1% of black deaths. So was the BLM movement for something insignificant and not worth discussing? No.
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I never said I don't want abortions to be legal. I said that I don't think they should be legal after a certain point barring certain circumstances. That's a very clear distinction. What you're proposing isn't even realistic because of how laws are made.

Right now you're trying to just throw anything at the wall and see what sticks with these comparisons. You're failing to take into account basic things that make the things you're trying to compare incomparable. You can't compare school shootings and police brutality to abortions
 
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