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While I Agree That When Pac & Big Died There Was A Void...

I think tho Jz slid in perfectly with the commercial side of music. You cannot argue what he and the roc built tho.

If you look at it IMLTV1 and V2 were two totally different albums on the spectrum of raw and the commercial release.

Rd and IMLTV1 imo are the best two releases jay ever did!
 
the void left by Pac was for emo thug music. DMX moved into that lane but he didn't have the Black Nationalist-lite aspect of Pac's catalog, so he could only carry that lane so far before his run was over and someone else did it.

The void left by Biggie was the street hustler turned rapper and Jay moved right on in and took over that spot and flipped it into a long ass career..

This is about content of the music more than "who's the best". With Pac still alive, DMX isn't nearly as big a star as he became. With Biggie alive Jay Z is AZ status and maybe Biggie's weed holder.
 
konceptjones said:
the void left by Pac was for emo thug music. DMX moved into that lane but he didn't have the Black Nationalist-lite aspect of Pac's catalog, so he could only carry that lane so far before his run was over and someone else did it.

The void left by Biggie was the street hustler turned rapper and Jay moved right on in and took over that spot and flipped it into a long ass career..

This is about content of the music more than "who's the best". With Pac still alive, DMX isn't nearly as big a star as he became. With Biggie alive Jay Z is AZ status and maybe Biggie's weed holder.
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Nosign.

Let's take it back to the late 80s when you had LL Cool J, Rakim, KRS, Big Daddy Kane, NWA, Public Enemy, Kool G Rap, and Slick Rick. All of those guys were top tier MCs. Also MC Hammer, Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince & Kid N Play.

5 years later none of those guys were on top. So it's very likely that Pac and Big would have fallen off and somebody fresh and new would have replaced them.

LL Cool J is a great example. In 1987 he was double plat, which was a big deal at the time. He was the absolute hottest MC between 85-88. He was so hot he had Kool Moe Dee, MC Hammer and Ice T throwing darts at him trying to take his spot. His Mama Said Knock You Out album was a huge success. Fast forward 5 years. He was still around but he wasn't the hottest rapper, he was just around. Same with KRS, he was in everybody's top 3-5 in the late 80s, but by the mid 90s, he was just around, not in anybody's top 3-5.
 
5 Grand said:
Nosign.

Let's take it back to the late 80s when you had LL Cool J, Rakim, KRS, Big Daddy Kane, NWA, Public Enemy, Kool G Rap, and Slick Rick. All of those guys were top tier MCs. Also MC Hammer, Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince & Kid N Play.

5 years later none of those guys were on top. So it's very likely that Pac and Big would have fallen off and somebody fresh and new would have replaced them.

LL Cool J is a great example. In 1987 he was double plat, which was a big deal at the time. He was the absolute hottest MC between 85-88. He was so hot he had Kool Moe Dee, MC Hammer and Ice T throwing darts at him trying to take his spot. His Mama Said Knock You Out album was a huge success. Fast forward 5 years. He was still around but he wasn't the hottest rapper, he was just around. Same with KRS, he was in everybody's top 3-5 in the late 80s, but by the mid 90s, he was just around, not in anybody's top 3-5.
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You do know that LL was still selling platinum through the 90's, right??? 14 Shots was his worst selling album during the 90's with only gold sales, but Mama Said..., Phenomenon, and Mr Smith were all platinum sellers with Mama and Mr Smith both selling double-plat. In the 2000's dude was still selling gold all the way through Todd Smith!

Mid 90's KRS dropped Return of the Boom Bap, KRS-ONE, and I Got Next, all three were pretty big ass records with I Got Next being his best selling album ever and hitting #3 on the Billboard charts.

Rakim stayed strong through The 18th Letter in '97 with both versions of that album going gold (the 18th Letter w/The Book OF Life was a separate release).

Slick Rick was in prison in the 90's. When Russel bailed his ass out he rushed to the studio to record two albums so he had something to be released while he was in prison and they both sound rushed and unfocused. The album that he dropped after he got out, The Art of Storytelling, showed he still had it. It was his highest charting album and critically acclaimed.

I'll give you BDK though. Dude could have been better. He came out the gate hot, but refused to shake that smooth lover bullshit so he fell the fuck off 'cause niggas wasn't fuckin with Prince of Darkness or Daddy's Home.
 
konceptjones said:
You do know that LL was still selling platinum through the 90's, right??? 14 Shots was his worst selling album during the 90's with only gold sales, but Mama Said..., Phenomenon, and Mr Smith were all platinum sellers with Mama and Mr Smith both selling double-plat. In the 2000's dude was still selling gold all the way through Todd Smith!

Mid 90's KRS dropped Return of the Boom Bap, KRS-ONE, and I Got Next, all three were pretty big ass records with I Got Next being his best selling album ever and hitting #3 on the Billboard charts.

Rakim stayed strong through The 18th Letter in '97 with both versions of that album going gold (the 18th Letter w/The Book OF Life was a separate release).

Slick Rick was in prison in the 90's. When Russel bailed his ass out he rushed to the studio to record two albums so he had something to be released while he was in prison and they both sound rushed and unfocused. The album that he dropped after he got out, The Art of Storytelling, showed he still had it. It was his highest charting album and critically acclaimed.

I'll give you BDK though. Dude could have been better. He came out the gate hot, but refused to shake that smooth lover bullshit so he fell the fuck off 'cause niggas wasn't fuckin with Prince of Darkness or Daddy's Home.
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Yeah but when Snoop, Pac, Biggie, Puffy & The Fugees started selling multiple plat all the late 80s rappers fell by the wayside. I mean, yeah those guys were going gold but Big Pac, Snoop, etc. were selling 4X and 5X plat.

My point is that had Pac and Big lived, they might have still been around, but maybe they's be going gold while DMX and Jay would be selling 4X and 5X plat.

It happens every generation, or every 5 years. I remember when the old school rappers (Kurtis Blow, Grandmaster Flash, Sugarhill Gang) got replaced by Run DMC, Whodini and the Fat Boys. Then Run DMC, Whodini and the Fat Boys got replaced by LL, KRS, Rakim and Public Enemy.

It's likely that Pac and Big would have had a nice 5 year run and fell off, selling gold but not able to reach multi-plat again.
 
5 Grand said:
Yeah but when Snoop, Pac, Biggie, Puffy & The Fugees started selling multiple plat all the late 80s rappers fell by the wayside. I mean, yeah those guys were going gold but Big Pac, Snoop, etc. were selling 4X and 5X plat.

My point is that had Pac and Big lived, they might have still been around, but maybe they's be going gold while DMX and Jay would be selling 4X and 5X plat.

It happens every generation, or every 5 years. I remember when the old school rappers (Kurtis Blow, Grandmaster Flash, Sugarhill Gang) got replaced by Run DMC, Whodini and the Fat Boys. Then Run DMC, Whodini and the Fat Boys got replaced by LL, KRS, Rakim and Public Enemy.

It's likely that Pac and Big would have had a nice 5 year run and fell off, selling gold but not able to reach multi-plat again.
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LL's platinum run lasted until 2000, when GOAT dropped. Like I said earlier, 14 shots was his only misstep from Bigger and Deffer through Mr Smith. Even Walking With a Panther went Platinum!


Now...

What y'all are not acknowledging is that this ain't even about sales; it's about content. Pac was good at doing Pac shit, which I define as emo thug shit with lightweight pro black neo-revolutionary shit on the side. Biggie excelled at the whole ex drug dealer turned rapper shit.

In those lanes, there was no question it was all about Big and Pac.

With their deaths, there was a void for both types of rappers to emerge. Jay swooped in and took Biggie's place meanwhile no one really filled Pac's shoes but DMX had part of it covered, which was enough to get him to superstardom but not enough for people to mention his name as one of the greats because he lacked part of Pac's style.

In truth, no one really took Pac's place 100%, but Jay did completely take over Big's spot in hip hop.
 
konceptjones said:
LL's platinum run lasted until 2000, when GOAT dropped. Like I said earlier, 14 shots was his only misstep from Bigger and Deffer through Mr Smith. Even Walking With a Panther went Platinum!


Now...

What y'all are not acknowledging is that this ain't even about sales; it's about content. Pac was good at doing Pac shit, which I define as emo thug shit with lightweight pro black neo-revolutionary shit on the side. Biggie excelled at the whole ex drug dealer turned rapper shit.

In those lanes, there was no question it was all about Big and Pac.

With their deaths, there was a void for both types of rappers to emerge. Jay swooped in and took Biggie's place meanwhile no one really filled Pac's shoes but DMX had part of it covered, which was enough to get him to superstardom but not enough for people to mention his name as one of the greats because he lacked part of Pac's style.

In truth, no one really took Pac's place 100%, but Jay did completely take over Big's spot in hip hop.
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But my point is that there was no guarantee that Pac or Big would have continued to sell multi platinum throughout the 00s.

People make it sound like the only reason Jay Z was successful is because Big died, which is nonsense.
 
If anything X was more authentic than Pac, he was exactly who he made himself out to be. I always felt like Pac was going in like 6 different directions at once. Theres versatility and then theres identity crisis
 
100MBS said:
If anything X was more authentic than Pac, he was exactly who he made himself out to be. I always felt like Pac was going in like 6 different directions at once. Theres versatility and then theres identity crisis
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Pac's first three albums versus All Eyes On Me and Makavelli isa testament to this.

I've often said that Pac started to assimilate "Bishop" into his persona after Juice. If you look at his early interviews and compare them to his later shit you'll see what I mean.
 
konceptjones said:
Pac's first three albums versus All Eyes On Me and Makavelli isa testament to this.

I've often said that Pac started to assimilate "Bishop" into his persona after Juice. If you look at his early interviews and compare them to his later shit you'll see what I mean.
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I mean you can say that...but you can also say that by the time Me Against The World dropped he was a full blown rap and movie star. Hell, around the time AEOM dropped he was arguably one of the hottest entertainers in the world.

Of course his subject matter was gonna change. Most of the great rappers drop their best work in their first couple of albums....pac arguably got better with each album he made while living.
 
Fam, you gotta stop giving credence to people who attribute anyone else's success to some sort of 'void' being filled.
 
I don't understand why so many deny the fact that Jay Z took bigs spot as number one in New York and then the game period.

He sold 5 million after biggie died. Thats just the facts not opinion
 
IC_Refugee said:
I don't understand why so many deny the fact that Jay Z took bigs spot as number one in New York and then the game period.

He sold 5 million after biggie died. Thats just the facts not opinion
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So did X, your point? Sales, "hit" records, and Beyonce, is the first thing you jigga warriors throw out. Niggas dont mention shit about actual rap.
 
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