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my man johncan always writing these academic thesis papers lol.

"It is not wonder to still hear nowadays older people and conservative individuals, mostly women of all races, bantering about fuller-figured, bottom-heavy and heavyweight women in a coded verbiose that automatically highlights creeping racial hostility and the misguided paranoia of assimilation and social decadence toward the stereotypization of black women made by popular culture and colonial literature since the slavery era. "

it's worth mentioning how strongly jealousy effects women. that jealousy sometimes manifests as hostility, maybe even racial hostility if what is out of reach for them is disproportionately a natural blessing to other more genetically fortunate ethnicities. but jealousy often knows no boundaries.

you'll see it on the comment section of IG sometimes. females hating on a certain body type when, in actual fact, we know damn well if they were built just as curvaciously (thick, maybe not bbw level) they'd flaunt it with all they got because it's bound to attract.

the media has promoted and harmfully tried to epitomize the ideal of skinniness - in ads, commercials, hollywood etc - for far too long. we're uprooting a long held western cultural inclination toward this idea of purity and innocence, which naturally translated itself into an idealized delicateness of female physical form... the opposite end of the spectrum being full on, in ur face, barely containable T&A that spoke to the wilder, more salacious side of desire and temptation, which in the context of the sort of prudish religious pervasiveness in older society, would be associated with the corrupt and immoral.

i think curvy women have always been sought after by men though. if not with full pride, for what might have seemed like chasing baser desires, then on the down low.

We may even thoroughly probe at these depths of schadenfreude within black owmed forums, given the retentless mixed feedbacks that we observe when people are facing up newer content of fuller and rounder women around here: going as far from an overwhelming silent majority poll who contents itself to lurk around, to the more vocally outraged forum-goers-- mostly early Millenials and middle aged men who grew up exposed to the ever skinnier-normative beauty norms in U.S. fashion, arts, medias and pop culture from the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s, and perceives would-be "newer" trends on feminine beauty and body that differs from their idealized youth and outdated comfort zone as lowly or pervert, to the ones who as vocally appreciates fuller-figured women but from the curvaceous end of the spectrum only and under conditions they are not bordering on "heavier BBW" territory, to the ones who fears general mockery and social alienation from their online peering if ever they openly expresses their appreciation toward heavier women.

And it all turns around around three main factors: vestigial puritanistic/religious influence on beauty and sexuality, idealized perception of American society and voiceless anti-feminist male black anxieties from seeing women's now half-century ling sexual liberation finally unbounds themselves from the thin-centric socionormativism enforced by the dominant white class-- which is just paradoxical, as it implies from one hand that the black American society seeks to attain sociopolitical and economical success via assimilation and fears that black women getting "loose" might impede the fight; byt to the other hand, they preconsciously fears that other "races" embraces negative stereotypes of so-calledly baser states of beauty and volupty associated to women of color, more particularly women of African heritage.

It's counterproductive...
 
We may even thoroughly probe at these depths of schadenfreude within black owmed forums, given the retentless mixed feedbacks that we observe when people are facing up newer content of fuller and rounder women around here: going as far from an overwhelming silent majority poll who contents itself to lurk around, to the more vocally outraged forum-goers-- mostly early Millenials and middle aged men who grew up exposed to the ever skinnier-normative beauty norms in U.S. fashion, arts, medias and pop culture from the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s, and perceives would-be "newer" trends on feminine beauty and body that differs from their idealized youth and outdated comfort zone as lowly or pervert, to the ones who as vocally appreciates fuller-figured women but from the curvaceous end of the spectrum only and under conditions they are not bordering on "heavier BBW" territory, to the ones who fears general mockery and social alienation from their online peering if ever they openly expresses their appreciation toward heavier women.

And it all turns around around three main factors: vestigial puritanistic/religious influence on beauty and sexuality, idealized perception of American society and voiceless anti-feminist male black anxieties from seeing women's now half-century ling sexual liberation finally unbounds themselves from the thin-centric socionormativism enforced by the dominant white class-- which is just paradoxical, as it implies from one hand that the black American society seeks to attain sociopolitical and economical success via assimilation and fears that black women getting "loose" might impede the fight; byt to the other hand, they preconsciously fears that other "races" embraces negative stereotypes of so-calledly baser states of beauty and volupty associated to women of color, more particularly women of African heritage.

It's counterproductive...

in fairness to those ppl, which include me,
i think ur second paragraph is more applicable to curvy to slighly overweight women who wear their weight well. when we start delving into the extreme end of BBW territory (examples of which have already been posted and aren't my cup of tea whatsoever), appreciation of that body type inhabits a niche, and rightfully so, since it really is a fetish. the fact it's a fetish speaks to its inherent unusualness. I'd argue that, for most people, and not necessarily because of prevailing religious, cultural or racial attitudes, morbid obesity falls far outside of natural, biological standards of sexual attraction (as far as we can claim there's objectivity to attractiveness).. for the same reason painfully disproportionate facial features could make someone objectively unattractive (think someone who could never in their wildest dream be a model or actor), extreme fatness, for most, isn't desirable either. And beyond how it looks, the body type implies characteristics of gluttony, lack of self control and ill health, which makes it even less tempting, particularly so for dudes like me who place a high standard on their health, will power and physical fitness.

and for that reason, i'm not so sure i can agree with "anti-fem black male anxieties" being any sort of culprit. for as much as sexual attraction is subjective, there lies some degree of biological objectivity, and in that respect, black males like me and the majority on this forum have been loving and always will love a full figured, proportionate woman. there's been that subversive disregard for white beauty standards going back decades.
 
in fairness to those ppl, which include me,
i think ur second paragraph is more applicable to curvy to slighly overweight women who wear their weight well. when we start delving into the extreme end of BBW territory (examples of which have already been posted and aren't my cup of tea whatsoever), appreciation of that body type inhabits a niche, and rightfully so, since it really is a fetish. the fact it's a fetish speaks to its inherent unusualness. I'd argue that, for most people, and not necessarily because of prevailing religious, cultural or racial attitudes, morbid obesity falls far outside of natural, biological standards of sexual attraction (as far as we can claim there's objectivity to attractiveness).. for the same reason painfully disproportionate facial features could make someone objectively unattractive (think someone who could never in their wildest dream be a model or actor), extreme fatness, for most, isn't desirable either. And beyond how it looks, the body type implies characteristics of gluttony, lack of self control and ill health, which makes it even less tempting, particularly so for dudes like me who place a high standard on their health, will power and physical fitness.

and for that reason, i'm not so sure i can agree with "anti-fem black male anxieties" being any sort of culprit. for as much as sexual attraction is subjective, there lies some degree of biological objectivity, and in that respect, black males like me and the majority on this forum have been loving and always will love a full figured, proportionate woman. there's been that subversive disregard for white beauty standards going back decades.

From a better objective standpoint, any particular sexual fixation onto something, or someone is not a form of fetish either way? I think by the "unusualness" of a said fetish, you meant a paraphilia, which is any due form of psychosocially devious fetish triggered by mental health disorders in the same vein than bestiality and other criminable sex deviancies.

And this is how by applying the indeed-niche attraction as psychosocially off-charts is tricky when we deal about attraction toward bigger women, given historiographical studies that demonstrates, from one hand that such attraction was quite the contrary of being unusual in pre-industrial and early industrial period Western societies, then to the other hand was even more frequent in both African and Near East societies prior European colonial expansionism in these regions; where the latter cross-cultural trend remained strong in most sub-Saharan African countries and rural/pastoral Berber-speaking communities across the Sahel and Sahara, but virtually banished in more urban regions of North Africa, Egypt and Western Asia where contemporary Eurocentrizied norms of Turkic-Arab beauty prevails the utmost (light/white skin, delicate features, thin frame and "Caucasoid" or "Armenoid" features... among populations of various ethnoliguistic and regional origins - most of those non-European - whose skin complexion varies predominantly from light olive to tawny to swarthy to red-brown to dark) and plumpness or roundness a subject of baser temptations, volupty, deriding and lest for the most conservative or fundamentalist expressions of faiths, heathen.

Of course from an evolutionary standpoint, biological norms of mating fitness plays along how we men reacts to plump, moderably overweight and bigger women, I'm not denying this. Apple-shaped women and evenly proportioned corpulent women are far less desirable to men then women of lesser or similar bodyweight with a waist-to-hip ratio below 0.80, a defined curveousness/voluptuousness and, depending which culture or region, a thigh-buttock ratio below 0.8 too (the aesthetically ideal WTH ratios and TB ratios, whom to them, varies pretty much from culture or population group to culture or population group) .

But my issue about the negative feedback is the paradox I've observed is when I see people commenting that in some manner, you're going to find one recurrent argument about men who comments about the so-called "obesity pandemics" among black women - let alone women all short in some Western countries - but doesn't dig deeper into the both socio-economical, cultural and psychosocial factors that bred to the widespread of unchecked weight control, but nonetheless appreciates their curves and roundness if ever they weren't much bigger than they are; then to the other hand another reccurent argument, more subtle albeit radical, about what plump and bigger black women destroys black culture, but as subtlely reproachs nonblack women to masquerade the appeal of stereotypized black women bodies by fattening up themselves-- but bigger black women destroys black culture, then how nonblack women are actually minestreling anything??

Hence why I found out that the issue is less about health, psychosocial norms and social/mating fitness and much about moral anxieties and socionormativism defined often by dominant classes and peoples who doesn't belong to the African people and its many diasporas, neither generically hold positive views about us and our culture.
 
From a better objective standpoint, any particular sexual fixation onto something, or someone is not a form of fetish either way? I think by the "unusualness" of a said fetish, you meant a paraphilia, which is any due form of psychosocially devious fetish triggered by mental health disorders in the same vein than bestiality and other criminable sex deviancies.

And this is how by applying the indeed-niche attraction as psychosocially off-charts is tricky when we deal about attraction toward bigger women, given historiographical studies that demonstrates, from one hand that such attraction was quite the contrary of being unusual in pre-industrial and early industrial period Western societies, then to the other hand was even more frequent in both African and Near East societies prior European colonial expansionism in these regions; where the latter cross-cultural trend remained strong in most sub-Saharan African countries and rural/pastoral Berber-speaking communities across the Sahel and Sahara, but virtually banished in more urban regions of North Africa, Egypt and Western Asia where contemporary Eurocentrizied norms of Turkic-Arab beauty prevails the utmost (light/white skin, delicate features, thin frame and "Caucasoid" or "Armenoid" features... among populations of various ethnoliguistic and regional origins - most of those non-European - whose skin complexion varies predominantly from light olive to tawny to swarthy to red-brown to dark) and plumpness or roundness a subject of baser temptations, volupty, deriding and lest for the most conservative or fundamentalist expressions of faiths, heathen.

Of course from an evolutionary standpoint, biological norms of mating fitness plays along how we men reacts to plump, moderably overweight and bigger women, I'm not denying this. Apple-shaped women and evenly proportioned corpulent women are far less desirable to men then women of lesser or similar bodyweight with a waist-to-hip ratio below 0.80, a defined curveousness/voluptuousness and, depending which culture or region, a thigh-buttock ratio below 0.8 too (the aesthetically ideal WTH ratios and TB ratios, whom to them, varies pretty much from culture or population group to culture or population group) .

But my issue about the negative feedback is the paradox I've observed is when I see people commenting that in some manner, you're going to find one recurrent argument about men who comments about the so-called "obesity pandemics" among black women - let alone women all short in some Western countries - but doesn't dig deeper into the both socio-economical, cultural and psychosocial factors that bred to the widespread of unchecked weight control, but nonetheless appreciates their curves and roundness if ever they weren't much bigger than they are; then to the other hand another reccurent argument, more subtle albeit radical, about what plump and bigger black women destroys black culture, but as subtlely reproachs nonblack women to masquerade the appeal of stereotypized black women bodies by fattening up themselves-- but bigger black women destroys black culture, then how nonblack women are actually minestreling anything??

Hence why I found out that the issue is less about health, psychosocial norms and social/mating fitness and much about moral anxieties and socionormativism defined often by dominant classes and peoples who doesn't belong to the African people and its many diasporas, neither generically hold positive views about us and our culture.

You're right about pre-industrial western society. Obesity was considered attractive and empowering. It was a physical signifier of wealth, abundance and security during a time of extreme social and economic disparity. A bluntly apparent, starkly contrasting manifestation of the reality of the haves and the have nots. It wouldn't have been apt to claim it as a fetish back then. But it's worth noting the relativity of socio-cultural norms, given that it could be argued the attraction during this period was a negatively pressured consequence of inequality. Living today, in far more advanced and egalitarian times, and through communications and globalization exposed to far more peoples and culture than ever before, the standard of sexual attraction has shifted. The global populace is relatively healthier, smarter, more educated and more exposed, and at least partly as a result of this progress of civilization, obesity has fallen out of favour.

For those reasons, I think it's safe to say it is indeed more about health, social norms and mating fitness. Considering both the former and latter, a low WHR, low BMI rating has been found to be the most desirable, which perhaps is an evolutionary development explained by research showing higher ratios of adipose tissue in the lower body being correlated with better health and cognitive ability for both the mother and her offspring.

Again though, I'm mostly rebutting in respect to genuinely obese individuals, not the bigger, fuller bodied, curvacious women we've been promoting for decades. In regards to the latter, it's undeniable that the association of black bodies with primitiveness (as in the case of Sarah Baartman), in attempts to legitimize racial superiority through pseudoscience, was a historical reality. Less so in our modern age, where you'll have seen plenty of outrageous T&A in men's magazines and pornography, although still only in substitution of fair representation on the red carpet, cat walk or elitist media, which speaks to an ongoing tension with body types not deemed delicate enough. Of course, to be fair, African women don't have a monopoly on thickness and European women don't have a monopoly on daintiness. Based on observation, the average woman of all backgrounds tends to the more basic side of body type and so stands to benefit from prevailing Western beauty standards, discounting other differing features like skin colour and facial features of course.

Thinking of the mindset of major fashion designers, casting agents and magazine editors... why go for thin body types, whether white, black or asian? You could ask many valid questions. Is voluptuousness too distracting? Too threatening? Does it appear lowly? Is it the domain of the sordid? There'd potentially be a resounding "yes" to all of the above. That perspective wouldn't necessarily be rooted in supremacism, but could very well be. The fact that the most powerful and influential people in media are largely white can't be brushed off. But it's also to be expected. The western world is by and large white. They're naturally and understandably going to promote what they find most comforting and appealing. Which is why it's up to us as minorities living and working in their world to fight for representation..

Fortunately, the tide seems to be turning in some respects for awareness and consolidation of the worth and appeal of varying body types.

(I can't really speak on this negative feedback thing you're referring to. I'm not aware of any of that tbh.)
 
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You're right about pre-industrial western society. Obesity was considered attractive and empowering. It was a physical signifier of wealth, abundance and security during a time of extreme social and economic disparity. A bluntly apparent, starkly contrasting manifestation of the reality of the haves and the have nots. It wouldn't have been apt to claim it as a fetish back then. But it's worth noting the relativity of socio-cultural norms, given that it could be argued the attraction during this period was a negatively pressured consequence of inequality. Living today, in far more advanced and egalitarian times, and through communications and globalization exposed to far more peoples and culture than ever before, the standard of sexual attraction has shifted. The global populace is relatively healthier, smarter, more educated and more exposed, and at least partly as a result of this progress of civilization, obesity has fallen out of favour.

For those reasons, I think it's safe to say it is indeed more about health, social norms and mating fitness. Considering both the former and latter, a low WHR, low BMI rating has been found to be the most desirable, which perhaps is an evolutionary development explained by research showing higher ratios of adipose tissue in the lower body being correlated with better health and cognitive ability for both the mother and her offspring.

Again though, I'm mostly rebutting in respect to genuinely obese individuals, not the bigger, fuller bodied, curvacious women we've been promoting for decades. In regards to the latter, it's undeniable that the association of black bodies with primitiveness (as in the case of Sarah Baartman), in attempts to legitimize racial superiority through pseudoscience, was a historical reality. Less so in our modern age, where you'll have seen plenty of outrageous T&A in men's magazines and pornography, although still only in substitution of fair representation on the red carpet, cat walk or elitist media, which speaks to an ongoing tension with body types not deemed delicate enough. Of course, to be fair, African women don't have a monopoly on thickness and European women don't have a monopoly on daintiness. Based on observation, the average woman of all backgrounds tends to the more basic side of body type and so stands to benefit from prevailing Western beauty standards, discounting other differing features like skin colour and facial features of course.

Thinking of the mindset of major fashion designers, casting agents and magazine editors... why go for thin body types, whether white, black or asian? You could ask many valid questions. Is voluptuousness too distracting? Too threatening? Does it appear lowly? Is it the domain of the sordid? There'd potentially be a resounding "yes" to all of the above. That perspective wouldn't necessarily be rooted in supremacism, but could very well be. The fact that the most powerful and influential people in media are largely white can't be brushed off. But it's also to be expected. The western world is by and large white. They're naturally and understandably going to promote what they find most comforting and appealing. Which is why it's up to us as minorities living and working in their world to fight for representation..

Fortunately, the tide seems to be turning in some respects for awareness and consolidation of the worth and appeal of varying body types.

(I can't really speak on this negative feedback thing you're referring to. I'm not aware of any of that tbh.)

I understand (my apologies for answering this late) .
 
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