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ajackson17 said:
And ya'll proving my point that "White" people designating populations without their damn input. It's like your name is Jamal and they call you James and now you say your name is James. Like how can you not see this or you need things so simplified for you?
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I don't really know what you mean. It's seems like you're the one doing that. I'm saying that Egypt was an African civilization and grew out of Africa with ties to other African populations that would be considered black by modern standards. You're the one that tried defending Hawass when he played his little of trying to cherrypick phenotypes for what could be considered black.
 
The Lonious Monk said:
No, the issues for the 2017 are not simply technical. The study examined over 100 mummies, but only 3 of them were found to be fit for genetic analysis. Those three mummies came from the Late Period and the Ptolemaic dynasty, which means they most likely were not representative of native Ancient Egyptians. Not to mention that 3 mummies is not nearly a good enough sample size to try and determine genetic links for the population of an entire nation.

Most of the studies that show strong links between the "Ancient Egyptians" and Middle Eastern, Northern African, and European populations were conducted using mummies from late periods after Egypt had been conquered and reconquered by a variety of foreign peoples such as the Assyrians, Greeks, and Romans. I believe the 2017 study in particular used a mummy taken from a burial site that was known to be exclusive to Greeks living in Egypt at the time. So, yes the actual DNA analysis was correct, but it didn't really address the question of who were the Ancient Egyptians most closely related to.

This video addresses that study.



It's long and the narrator can be a bit annoying at times, but it's a good watch. He addresses that study and provides studies and researcher input discussing the problems with that study.
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Bro you know there are more genetic studies on the ancient populations of Egypt right and the modern populations. So that's what you are not getting. I watched several Egyptologists definitely addressed that the modern population is more related to the ancient population than any other population on earth. Also, the invader theory is a flat out lie and started because white people didn't think brown skin tone people could build a grand civilization in their mind. So it was already a racist theory.

Keep 19th century propaganda in the 19th century where it belongs.
 
The Lonious Monk said:
I don't really know what you mean. It's seems like you're the one doing that. I'm saying that Egypt was an African civilization and grew out of Africa with ties to other African populations that would be considered black by modern standards. You're the one that tried defending Hawass when he played his little of trying to cherrypick phenotypes for what could be considered black.
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ajackson17 said:
Yet it's 2024. The cario symposium of 73 kind destroyed that. Black is a racialized term that doesn't have any bearing on ancient populations including our own ancestors. That some shit that white people came up with and has no biological root.

Now, Egyptian culture is definitely African and even though no one called the continent Africa let alone a thousand years ago, but it's just a designated term to use for the continent. On the African continent Egyptians from the north been mixing with more outsiders during proto dynastic time and those in the south more of inner continent Africans primarily Nubians. And since it's a state those in the north and south mix. Thus you get all kinds of variation, but ultimately Egyptians are north africans.
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Hawass statement that he wouldn't call the Egyptians black is fair point. It's a colonial term.

Egyptologists would use the one drop rule of the Jim Crow era for a more accurate terminology.
 
ajackson17 said:
Bro you know there are more genetic studies on the ancient populations of Egypt right and the modern populations. So that's what you are not getting. I watched several Egyptologists definitely addressed that the modern population is more related to the ancient population than any other population on earth. Also, the invader theory is a flat out lie and started because white people didn't think brown skin tone people could build a grand civilization in their mind. So it was already a racist theory.

Keep 19th century propaganda in the 19th century where it belongs.
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1) Yes, I know there are multiple genetic studies on ancient populations. That's why I said that the ones that conclude that the Ancient Egyptians were more closely related to modern Egyptians or other groups are the ones that sampled mummies from more recent sites. The ones that actually sampled mummies from the Old Kingdom time period show more Central and East African connection. Also, many of those studies conclude a connection between Middle Eastern populations and the Ancient Egyptians because of the presence of R1b Haplogroup which originated in Asia like 10,000 years ago. However, that Haplogroup has been in Africa for about 8000 years well before the Egyptian civilization started, so the conclusions being made are faulty.

2) I think you're mixing things up. Egypt was invaded. That's not a theory. That's fact. It was invaded many times by many groups. The most recent invasion was during the Muslim expansion, and that's where a lot of the current Egyptians have roots. It's also why Egypt is a Muslim country. Acknowledging that Egypt was invaded has nothing to do with what race the Ancient Egyptians were because the civilization had already been around for over 2 thousand years before it was invaded. The racist theory you're talking about is the reasoning Europeans gave for why Egypt couldn't have been created by Black people where they said that some other group must have ruled in the area because black people were too stupid to create such a civilization. That popped up in the 1800s and was a direct response to earlier European explorers who said unequivocally that the Ancient Egyptians were black.

ajackson17 said:
Hawass statement that he wouldn't call the Egyptians black is fair point. It's a colonial term.

Egyptologists would use the one drop rule of the Jim Crow era for a more accurate terminology.
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No, it's not fair point. It just goes to show how wishy-washy people are when it comes to blackness. He's trying to say that the Ancient Egyptians weren't black because some depictions show them with aqualine noses, thin lips, and reddish brown skin. That's bullshit because 1) black Africans were never limited to just Negro features and 2) as I pointed out before Ethiopians, Kenyans, Sudaneses, etc... all have people and groups within their populations that have those traits and those people are considered black. Go look up videos on how East Africans say they are treated in Egypt by modern Egyptians. On one hand, he wants to say that black people with those features aren't "really black" but on the other hand, his countrymen mistreat those people because they are "black." Stop cosigning racist bullshit man.
 
The Lonious Monk said:
1) Yes, I know there are multiple genetic studies on ancient populations. That's why I said that the ones that conclude that the Ancient Egyptians were more closely related to modern Egyptians or other groups are the ones that sampled mummies from more recent sites. The ones that actually sampled mummies from the Old Kingdom time period show more Central and East African connection. Also, many of those studies conclude a connection between Middle Eastern populations and the Ancient Egyptians because of the presence of R1b Haplogroup which originated in Asia like 10,000 years ago. However, that Haplogroup has been in Africa for about 8000 years well before the Egyptian civilization started, so the conclusions being made are faulty.

2) I think you're mixing things up. Egypt was invaded. That's not a theory. That's fact. It was invaded many times by many groups. The most recent invasion was during the Muslim expansion, and that's where a lot of the current Egyptians have roots. It's also why Egypt is a Muslim country. Acknowledging that Egypt was invaded has nothing to do with what race the Ancient Egyptians were because the civilization had already been around for over 2 thousand years before it was invaded. The racist theory you're talking about is the reasoning Europeans gave for why Egypt couldn't have been created by Black people where they said that some other group must have ruled in the area because black people were too stupid to create such a civilization. That popped up in the 1800s and was a direct response to earlier European explorers who said unequivocally that the Ancient Egyptians were black.



No, it's not fair point. It just goes to show how wishy-washy people are when it comes to blackness. He's trying to say that the Ancient Egyptians weren't black because some depictions show them with aqualine noses, thin lips, and reddish brown skin. That's bullshit because 1) black Africans were never limited to just Negro features and 2) as I pointed out before Ethiopians, Kenyans, Sudaneses, etc... all have people and groups within their populations that have those traits and those people are considered black. Go look up videos on how East Africans say they are treated in Egypt by modern Egyptians. On one hand, he wants to say that black people with those features aren't "really black" but on the other hand, his countrymen mistreat those people because they are "black." Stop cosigning racist bullshit man.
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No. They did dna testing on the modern egyptians from the 2000s and shown the affinity that the population had and numerous others there is 2019, 2021, 2023 studies as well. Why aren't ya'll mentioning those studies as well?

Egypt is the great mix from populations from the continent and those outside the continent and even in the neolithic period there was mixing from back migrations. Like what are we talking about you think there was a big fence that kept everyone out? No.

S.O.Y Keita doesn't agree with ya'll and he is geneticist and he is African.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.20428

I agree with Hawass because he is correct in that statement and ya'll can have all the beef with him ya'll want and I don't think he isn't racist or Egypt centered. The truth of the matter is that Egypt isn't what you think it is and ranged from light to dark and have varying feature.


I gave you an expert and she says they would be black from the one drop rule perspective, but think about the what does that mean. You can have my great grandfather very light, blue eyes, and looks passing. That's black, but you can have someone like Wesley snipes and yet they are considered the same. Yet, if you want to do an eye test someone who doesn't know anything about the race they wouldn't see those men of the same ethnicity but they are based on culture and how America is set up. That would be terribly different in Africa.

academic.oup.com

Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

Abstract. Detailed population data were obtained on the distribution of novel biallelic markers that finely dissect the human Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M78
academic.oup.com academic.oup.com

 
ajackson17 said:
No. They did dna testing on the modern egyptians from the 2000s and shown the affinity that the population had and numerous others there is 2019, 2021, 2023 studies as well. Why aren't ya'll mentioning those studies as well?

Egypt is the great mix from populations from the continent and those outside the continent and even in the neolithic period there was mixing from back migrations. Like what are we talking about you think there was a big fence that kept everyone out? No.

S.O.Y Keita doesn't agree with ya'll and he is geneticist and he is African.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.20428

I agree with Hawass because he is correct in that statement and ya'll can have all the beef with him ya'll want and I don't think he isn't racist or Egypt centered. The truth of the matter is that Egypt isn't what you think it is and ranged from light to dark and have varying feature.


I gave you an expert and she says they would be black from the one drop rule perspective, but think about the what does that mean. You can have my great grandfather very light, blue eyes, and looks passing. That's black, but you can have someone like Wesley snipes and yet they are considered the same. Yet, if you want to do an eye test someone who doesn't know anything about the race they wouldn't see those men of the same ethnicity but they are based on culture and how America is set up. That would be terribly different in Africa.

academic.oup.com

Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

Abstract. Detailed population data were obtained on the distribution of novel biallelic markers that finely dissect the human Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M78
academic.oup.com academic.oup.com

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I don't really understand what you're arguing anymore. Nothing you just posted disagrees with what I'm saying. The paper you posted actually supports the idea that common genetics seen between the Ancient Egyptians and Nubians can't be explained by the Nubians conquering Egypt during the 25th dynasty. The video is him saying that he believed that the Egyptians were dark skinned.

He seems to reject the term negro, which is fine. The Negroid classification is some shit that white people made up. When we say black African, we aren't talking about the Negroid stereotype because we acknoweledge that black Africans come with a variety of phenotypes.
 
The Lonious Monk said:
I don't really understand what you're arguing anymore. Nothing you just posted disagrees with what I'm saying. The paper you posted actually supports the idea that common genetics seen between the Ancient Egyptians and Nubians can't be explained by the Nubians conquering Egypt during the 25th dynasty. The video is him saying that he believed that the Egyptians were dark skinned.

He seems to reject the term negro, which is fine. The Negroid classification is some shit that white people made up. When we say black African, we aren't talking about the Negroid stereotype because we acknoweledge that black Africans come with a variety of phenotypes.
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And he disagree with black as well. I'm not saying their dark skin and they can range in skin tone.

The argument is you deny the modern Egyptians are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptian population.

I have said I do not put racial classifications to ancient populations because they had never lived under white supremacy.
 
@ajackson17

The Amarna Mummies were deemed sub saharan yo

Zahi Hawass is a known racist but he was objective when he confirmed genetics of Ramesses the 3rd and his son Pentawer having the same genes as West African tribes and 60% of African Americans

S.O.Y Keita confirmed and followed through with a peer reviewed article in September 2022

Do you agree with Ramesses the 3rd & his son being Haplogroup E1b1a?
 
Hes arguing semantics

..
Hes basically saying they arent black because black negro whatever are terms of white men a least what im getting from his post.. and they arent black because they don't have the stereotypical negroid features thats the same faulty logic that is played out on yourvarious social medias when niggas try to devalue ones blackness because it not stereotypical


African have the most varied geno and pheno types among all other groups
 
Playmaker88 said:
Hes arguing semantics

..
Hes basically saying they arent black because black negro whatever are terms of white men a least what im getting from his post.. and they arent black because they don't have the stereotypical negroid features thats the same faulty logic that is played out on yourvarious social medias when niggas try to devalue ones blackness because it not stereotypical


African have the most varied geno and pheno types among all other groups
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First part correct and second part nah. Thats not my argument in the second they are indigenous Africans and there are tons of ways of being African phenotypically and genetically as you said.

I would say the same for ancient West, South, Central, and East Africa. Colonialism is a disease at its most deepest root.
 
Bed$tuy🇭🇹 said:
@ajackson17

The Amarna Mummies were deemed sub saharan yo

Zahi Hawass is a known racist but he was objective when he confirmed genetics of Ramesses the 3rd and his son Pentawer having the same genes as West African tribes and 60% of African Americans

S.O.Y Keita confirmed and followed through with a peer reviewed article in September 2022

Do you agree with Ramesses the 3rd & his son being Haplogroup E1b1a?
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Zahi Hawass has arabic culture and black is considered something horrible. If you watched the video I posted the Egyptologist explains why but even Zahi Hawass confirms they are indigenous Africans and the culture is African formed by various groups. Didn't need Mesopotamia, the levant or any other outside influences.
 
ajackson17 said:
Just be weary your y and mitochondria chromosome haplogroups just make up one small part of you. There is the autosomal dna too.

Also E1b1a is ancient so it could have developed anywhere on the continent. And it could be an ancestor from far away. So that y haplogroup doesn't totally make up his total composition.
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Correct

I white person can have E1b1a but his autosomal DNA is European.
Admixtures and stuff so I overstand the swirling😏

So what you think about the Findings of Uan Muhuggiag eh?
 
ajackson17 said:
Zahi Hawass has arabic culture and black is considered something horrible. If you watched the video I posted the Egyptologist explains why but even Zahi Hawass confirms they are indigenous Africans and the culture is African formed by various groups. Didn't need Mesopotamia, the levant or any other outside influences.
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Who preceded the Mesopotamians?
 
ajackson17 said:
And he disagree with black as well. I'm not saying their dark skin and they can range in skin tone.

The argument is you deny the modern Egyptians are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptian population.

I have said I do not put racial classifications to ancient populations because they had never lived under white supremacy.
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I don't deny that modern Egyptians are not the descendents of the Ancient Egyptians. I've been saying all along that they aren't.

Ok, it's fair to say that the Ancient Egyptians lived in a time when our modern concept of race didn't apply. That's missing the point though. This argument doesn't exist because anyone thought the Egyptians believed themselves to be black. This argument exists because white people have spent centuries making the claim that melanated peoples particularly those of darker skin and living in Africa have never created anything of worth in the world. The fact that Ancient Egypt was a civilization created by those very people flies in the face of that narrative.
 
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