Former VA Lt. Governor Kills Wife and Himself w/ Kids At Home

konceptjones said:
"Whataboutism" is a cop out and you're better than that (I'm being serious).

The conversation is about a man murdering his wife, you introduced the whole gun aspect of it which I responded to but also pointed out that there's still a huge possibility that she could have been killed anyways even if the whole legal apparatus had worked as intended and removed his ability to legally buy a gun and possess one; it just would have happened with a different instrument.

Clearly he wanted to kill her, the instrument used is irrelevant.
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But the conversation isn't how do we stop violence within humanity. The conversation I brought up was about gun laws and how the "law-abiding citizen" narrative is not a good stance. Knife murders was completely irrelevant. There was no need to bring that up at all. That's why it's whataboutism because that part of the argument didn't address the topic at all. It just deflected to something completely different.

You initial answer was good. There was no need to bring knife violence into the discussion at all. And that's the problem with some of you heavy 2A supporters. Some of you rely way to much on making bad and unnecessary arguments, especially given that there are actual good arguments to make.
 
Y'all koncept tripping

He wasn't going to choose a knife because it's not instant like a gun shot is
 
The Lonious Monk said:
But the conversation isn't how do we stop violence within humanity. The conversation I brought up was about gun laws and how the "law-abiding citizen" narrative is not a good stance. Knife murders was completely irrelevant. There was no need to bring that up at all. That's why it's whataboutism because that part of the argument didn't address the topic at all. It just deflected to something completely different.

You initial answer was good. There was no need to bring knife violence into the discussion at all. And that's the problem with some of you heavy 2A supporters. Some of you rely way to much on making bad and unnecessary arguments, especially given that there are actual good arguments to make.
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You can't ignore reality. Murder is murder, the want to kill someone and the will to act upon it exists with or without a gun, that's my point here. The gun is meaningless; it's the person's desire to end the life of another that matters. How that person goes about it will vary from person to person.
 
konceptjones said:
You can't ignore reality. Murder is murder, the want to kill someone and the will to act upon it exists with or without a gun, that's my point here. The gun is meaningless; it's the person's desire to end the life of another that matters. How that person goes about it will vary from person to person.
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It's not meaningless though. It's easier to kill with guns than knives. That's just a fact. You bringing up a couple of examples of people who killed with knives doesn't change that. I could go fish for examples of people who were attacked by knives and survived that would have been dead if the weapon was a gun. That serves no purpose. The topic is gun control and how we can build a conversation around it that leads to serving everyone's interests. And even now, you're just committed to deflecting. I can give you an example of someone killing someone else with a rock. Does that mean that nukes should be legal for random citizens to own? Yes, that's a very hyperbolic example, but the logic is consistent with what you're pushing - "If people want to kill, they're going to kill so the tools available to them don't matter." Can your really not see the problem there?
 
The Lonious Monk said:
It's not meaningless though. It's easier to kill with guns than knives. That's just a fact. You bringing up a couple of examples of people who killed with knives doesn't change that. I could go fish for examples of people who were attacked by knives and survived that would have been dead if the weapon was a gun. That serves no purpose. The topic is gun control and how we can build a conversation around it that leads to serving everyone's interests. And even now, you're just committed to deflecting. I can give you an example of someone killing someone else with a rock. Does that mean that nukes should be legal for random citizens to own? Yes, that's a very hyperbolic example, but the logic is consistent with what you're pushing - "If people want to kill, they're going to kill so the tools available to them don't matter." Can your really not see the problem there?
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The examples I used were husbands that killed their spouses and their children with a knife, then committed suicide and I did that to draw a parallel to this specific case to illustrate that, in the absence of a gun, another method will be used when the person has the desire and will to end life. It's not a deflection, it just doesn't align with your stance and, thus, you only see it as a deflection. Murder doesn't go away because guns go away, that much has been proven across the globe and since we already have a shitton of gun control laws in place it served no purpose to even discuss it within the context of this particular incident.

Remember: You are the one that introduced this as part of the discussion, you are the one that needlessly made it about gun control; prior to that it wasn't. No one was talking "gun control" until you did AND, you tagged me into it for that specific purpose. My previous response in the thread was on the mental health aspect of it, not the weapon used.
 
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Tayboo said:
The comments I have seen about this story and the excuses made for this man killing his wife have made me sick to my stomach.
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The gender war gets real and when this shit happens. The slew of excuses and now wanting talk about his mental health, some gonna mention how a divorce can throw a man over the edge and not being able to provide

Some folks even brought up the sexual assault allegations as an excuse.

None of it that valid to me tho. I could see if he was like in shock after a crazy event happens and he snaps. To me this wasn’t that.
 
konceptjones said:
The examples I used were husbands that killed their spouses and their children with a knife, then committed suicide and I did that to draw a parallel to this specific case to illustrate that, in the absence of a gun, another method will be used when the person has the desire and will to end life. It's not a deflection, it just doesn't align with your stance and, thus, you only see it as a deflection. Murder doesn't go away because guns go away, that much has been proven across the globe and since we already have a shitton of gun control laws in place it served no purpose to even discuss it within the context of this particular incident.

Remember: You are the one that introduced this as part of the discussion, you are the one that needlessly made it about gun control; prior to that it wasn't. No one was talking "gun control" until you did AND, you tagged me into it for that specific purpose. My previous response in the thread was on the mental health aspect of it, not the weapon used.
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It is by definition because my original statement to you had nothing to do with the idea that only guns kill, so knife murders were completely irrelevant. Your answer about them not upholding the rules in place was the direct response to my post. You had to throw the knife thing in because you don't like the concept of gun control and you can't help yourself. I'm telling you as someone who supports second amendment rights, that as stupid habit gun advocates have. It doesn't help your cause at all because everyone against gun rights think it's a stupid argument. And it is because no one has ever said that gun control will solve the problem of violence in the U.S. That's not the reason people are pushing for gun laws.

It's like me saying ketchup on steak is an abomination and you coming and saying some people put ketchup on salmon. Ok, that's horrible too, but that's not what we were talking about.
 
The Lonious Monk said:
It is by definition because my original statement to you had nothing to do with the idea that only guns kill, so knife murders were completely irrelevant. Your answer about them not upholding the rules in place was the direct response to my post. You had to throw the knife thing in because you don't like the concept of gun control and you can't help yourself. I'm telling you as someone who supports second amendment rights, that as stupid habit gun advocates have. It doesn't help your cause at all because everyone against gun rights think it's a stupid argument. And it is because no one has ever said that gun control will solve the problem of violence in the U.S. That's not the reason people are pushing for gun laws.

It's like me saying ketchup on steak is an abomination and you coming and saying some people put ketchup on salmon. Ok, that's horrible too, but that's not what we were talking about.
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Yeah, that's a lie.



konceptjones said:
We've gone over it repeatedly in similar threads: Guns can't shoot themselves. It's the person wielding the gun that's the problem. This ain't got shit to do with me "liking guns", it's about doing something meaningful to stop these nut jobs from shooting up schools and shit. Y'all literally refuse to remember that not only have I pointed this shit out, but I've gone in-depth to explain it.

Time and time again we've come to find out that many of these shooters have had previous run-ins with law enforcement where they exhibited similar behaviors or behaviors conducive to being a fuckin maniac willing to kill people. What's needed is the ability to strip someone of their ability to legally purchase guns when they've shown themselves to be mentally unstable. I stress the "legally" part because nothing will stop someone from buying a gun illegally. Red Flag laws do exist but are not enforced and it needs to be a nationwide thing.

Also, make all private gun sales go through an FBI background check just like you do when you cop from a licensed dealer. We had that law in place in Nevada and 13 other states also have it. Make that nationwide as well.

I've said this in all of these other threads that you, @Inori, and @TheNightKing have been a part of but y'all don't seem to get it.
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konceptjones said:
I've been saying this for a minute. Red flag laws need to be pushed out in every state.
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konceptjones said:
They check your criminal background. This is why getting red flag laws on the books across the country is so critical because it would allow local cops (who initiate the NICS search) to flag people so they can't buy a gun of any type. If dude was labeled a "clear and present danger", a flag would have been set and he would have been denied a purchase.
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konceptjones said:
What they don't even realize is that we already have common sense gun laws.

True assault rifles were banned in 1986
Short barrelled rifles can't legally be owned without registering it with the government and paying for an NFA stamp
Can't purchase a handgun unless you're 21
Can't purchase a rifle/shotgun unless you're 18 (this could be raised to 21)
Can't legally buy, transport, or even hold a gun or even just ammo if you're a user of any banned substance, including weed (1968 Gun Control Act)
All purchases from licensed gun dealers require an FBI run background check (this can be made universal so it covers private sales as well)
Can't legally buy a gun if you have even a misdemeanor domestic violence conviction
Can't legally buy a gun if you're not a citizen
Convicted felons across the board cannot own a gun
Anyone that has ever been institutionalized or deemed to be "mentally defective" by the courts can't own a gun
Anyone with an active order of protection against them can't own a gun
Got a dishonorable discharge from the military? Can't own a gun
Even if you're under indictment for any crime that can land you behind bars for even a day over a year you can't buy, transport, or own a gun.

Seriously... other than maybe raising the age to 21 across the board, nationwide red flag laws, and making background checks 100% universal, what other laws could possibly be passed???
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I've repeatedly shown how much gun control we already have on the books and not once have I said anything to the effect of "We need to do away with gun control".
 
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SeaSnake said:
The gender war gets real and when this shit happens. The slew of excuses and now wanting talk about his mental health, some gonna mention how a divorce can throw a man over the edge and not being able to provide

Some folks even brought up the sexual assault allegations as an excuse.

None of it that valid to me tho. I could see if he was like in shock after a crazy event happens and he snaps. To me this wasn’t that.
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Like if he went off somewhere and killed himself because of everything going on, then maybe I could sympathize about his mental health. This man killed his wife and himself knowing full well his children would be the ones to find them. He was a selfish bastard.
 
Tayboo said:
Like if he went off somewhere and killed himself because of everything going on, then maybe I could sympathize about his mental health. This man killed his wife and himself knowing full well his children would be the ones to find them. He was a selfish bastard.
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He was. Even killing himself is a selfish ass act.
 
The Lonious Monk said:
Ok fair enough. Then bringing up the knife deaths was truly pointless.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree here. You see it one way, I see it another.

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BlackRain said:
Fuck him and Chris Benoit too. Mental health is a reason not an excuse
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I still don't think Benoit did it.

But fuck this guy's soul. I don't care what upset him, to go this far just shows how weak men are on average. We rule the world, hold all the positions and get the benefits of doubt, yet we completely lose our shit when we feel helpless, and usually blame everyone except ourself. The fact that he did this with the children home makes me believe he was all ego by that point.
 
Loneshot said:
I still don't think Benoit did it.

But fuck this guy's soul. I don't care what upset him, to go this far just shows how weak men are on average. We rule the world, hold all the positions and get the benefits of doubt, yet we completely lose our shit when we feel helpless, and usually blame everyone except ourself. The fact that he did this with the children home makes me believe he was all ego by that point.
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Why do you think we're in this war with Iran??? 'Cause Cheeto In Chief has his back against the wall over Epstein and is helpless over it.
 
Loneshot said:
I still don't think Benoit did it.

But fuck this guy's soul. I don't care what upset him, to go this far just shows how weak men are on average. We rule the world, hold all the positions and get the benefits of doubt, yet we completely lose our shit when we feel helpless, and usually blame everyone except ourself. The fact that he did this with the children home makes me believe he was all ego by that point.
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On average? Men that do stuff like this are extreme outliers within the male population. You been on that pink pill shit haven't you.
 
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